Unpaid Nursing Home fees after death - who is liable?

monkeyspanner

National savings have a tracing service
http://www.nsandi.com/help/tracing_service.jsp

Also a long shot is a lost pension fund
http://www.thepensionservice.gov.uk/atoz/atozdetailed/pensiontracing.asp

If you think there may be more insurance polies this link might help
http://www.unclaimedassets.co.uk/lost_life_insurance.htm

ratty67

Thank you monkeyspanner, those links are very useful

The bank statements have arrived this morning from both accounts. They are going to take a lot of ploughing through but we seem to have found yet another unknown bank account and an ISA. These were transactions done before the lady's husband passed away so should be completely legitimate and above board.

Unfortunately we're also seeing a fair amount of very suspicious activity starting from the time the lady's husband went into a care home. Large amounts of money being transfered into two different accounts.

There's £2,200 we knew about taken from ATMs in the space of 9 days when the old lady couldn't use a cashpoint - this was the point the bank was asked by my DH to not allow money to be removed unless the old lady herself went into the bank. The bank agreed and did so. Worked as well as no more money walked in that manner...

You've got to therefore ask yourself how online banking was then allowed from this account?!! This frail old lady couldn't have turned on a computer if her life depended on it. She also had her OWN bank account and never touched the one she had with her late husband. If she needed any money, she removed it over the counter from HER OWN account. Never this one. Would the bank itself be liable?

I also don't think the old lady needed an O2 mobile phone or house insurance. Or signed for two further unknown insurance policies.

At best you can throw an accusation of serious financial mis-management at the daughter considering at one point the old lady's bank account was £2,000 OD. At worst it's a case of fraud.

There's also no sign of the old lady's state pension payments. Wonder where they were going? We do however now have her NI number from the couple of Attendance Allowance payments that were made before she went into the care home.

Any questions, fire away. I'm just sat here trying to work through the figures and making notes as I go.

sloughflint

For online banking, a person must have power of attorney. Being a signatory on an account is not good enough.

DWP should be able to give you details of where the pension was being paid to.

This woman is going to get into a lot of trouble.

ratty67

The online banking was occuring from BOTH accounts with the same bank, the joint one with her daughter and the one that had been her husbands (now in the lady's name only).

We know she went for Enduring Power of but didn't get it. The old lady wanted her nowhere near her money so refused. We also know that at a much, much later point (after the lady had all but been lost to dementia) she applied to the Court of Protection for Receivership, no idea if she was successful. We doubt she did, one look at these bank statements would have proved she did NOT have her Mother's best interests at heart.

I'm inclined to think this may very well become a police matter. We're going to go and talk to the bank on Monday to see what they have to say. If they've allowed online banking without an EPA or PoA would that make the bank equally liable for the missing money?

sloughflint

I would imagine the bank would still manage to wriggle out of trouble by blaming the poor old lady for allowing her own online details to become known by a third party.

ratty67

That's what I figured too. I just cannot understand why there was online banking on that account. It wasn't needed. The old lady couldn't have used that facility. Come to think of it, when we took her to the bank in the May of that year there was NO internet banking facility on that account...

sloughflint

ratty67 wrote: »

I just cannot understand why there was online banking on that account.

It made me wonder if she had successfully become a deputy but I very much doubt it in view of below in red:

Part E: Legal Matters
How is a person who lacks capacity protected from
financial loss?
If you are appointed as a Deputy responsible for property and affairs, the Court may require you to provide some form of security, for example a guarantee bond, to cover any loss as a result of your behaviour.
The Court will determine the level of security required, which will be proportionate to the amount of funds you are handling.
The Court may also ask you to provide regular reports and accounts to the OPG.
How is a person who lacks capacity protected from abuse?
The Act introduces two new criminal offences: ill treatment and wilful neglect of a person who lacks capacity. The offences can apply to anyone caring for a person who lacks capacity including family, health, social care, hospital or care home staff, Attorneys or Deputies.
A person is guilty of an offence if they ill-treat or wilfully neglect the person they care for or represent. Penalties range from a fine to a sentence of imprisonment of up to five years, or both.

http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/docs/opg510web-0409.pdf

It certainly seems that there are going to have to be legal costs involved here, aren't there? Money that should be on the way to beneficiaries needs to be recovered.

ratty67

Thank you. Looks very informative. I'm going to read that thoroughly and try and at least absorb some of it!

I think my brain may be getting fried

sloughflint

ratty67 wrote: »

Thank you. Looks very informative. I'm going to read that thoroughly and try and at least absorb some of it!

I think my brain may be getting fried

The quick way of finding out would be via the bank. They'll have on file what type of authority the woman had.

localhero

I too strongly suspect that it will be hard to pin the blame on to the bank; as they will I'm sure say, they took instruction from their client - though it would be interesting to see what they have to say.

The police I suspect may take the view that wrongdoing is hard to prove as the daughter will doubtless say that the transferring of money to herself was a gift from her mother. I wouldn't rule out this avenue, as it would save the estate money if the police were to uncover evidence of wrongdoing instead of having to pay lawyers to battle it out.

Ultimately though, in the same way as the executor has a legal duty to pay the debts of the estate, your husband must also collect in what's owed to the estate - whether the estate is solvent or not - and that does include settling any legal disputes. If he doesn't then a residuary beneficiary may hold him personally accountable.

sloughflint wrote:

It certainly seems that there are going to have to be legal costs involved here, aren't there? Money that should be on the way to beneficiaries needs to be recovered.

It seems that way to me.