Unpaid Nursing Home fees after death - who is liable?

ratty67

Thank you!

Well the statement from the LA arrived this morning. They want paying by the 22nd. We've just about finished laughing! They'll be getting a rocket up their collective backsides next week.

They also sent a transaction history that has a start date of 13/04/06 when the lady went into the care home during November 2005. Wonder where the missing months are?!

This history shows not one long period of non payment but TWO. Both last for 7 months. There's a pattern - 7 months non payment, pay 2 months worth via direct debit, then cancel the direct debit again. Then play catch up for a few months, then stop paying again.

I can see two periods where it looks like they put her on some kind of installment plan but also a long period where she was only paying exactly what was due. The highest the total was allowed to get to was actually £11, 324.27.

All I can see from this is that the LA should have taken action against the daughter and yet failed to do so. The total crept up to £11,000, was reduced to £6,000 then she stopped paying again. That should have been the point I think when they prosecuted. I'd love to know their reasoning as to why they didn't.

Now we need to see the bank statements to see how the LA transaction history matches up. Was the money there and daughter just wasn't handing it over? Was daughter spending the money and having to replace it? Not that it really matters - the estate cannot pay this bill nor should it I think. Their agreement was with the daughter. She was her Mum's representitive. Chase her, the installment plan doesn't end because the lady died. The agreement wasn't with her.

Either scenario means, however that we can prove she wasn't acting in her own Mum's best interests. The LA also have some serious questions to answer, namely why they allowed daughter to clearly not act in her Mums best interests.

Errata

Either scenario means, however that we can prove she wasn't acting in her own Mum's best interests. The LA also have some serious questions to answer, namely why they allowed daughter to clearly not act in her Mums best interests.

Spot on ! Part of a social workers duty is to protect their vulnerable clients from being abused - in this case financial abuse.

Clearly there was a misuse of benefits - in this case not handing over the state retirement pension to the council to fund part of the care home fees. The Finance dept were aware of this and should have reported their concerns to social services for investigation.

monkeyspanner

Amazing isn't it that the LA can let a situation slide for months and then want virtually immediate payment. If you employ the same tactic as the daughter what are they going to do? It isn't that big an amount they will probably write it off in the end.

ratty67

Exactly, what can they do to DH? I'm guessing at a bit fat nothing!

He didn't place his Mum in a home, he didn't sign the contract, he didn't take it upon himself to take charge of the benefits, he wasn't the one NOT PAYING.

They have a nerve demanding payment by a week on Wednesday. Hope they get it - it just won't be from the estate I'm not entirely sure which part of "the estate doesn't have the money" they're NOT grasping!

Errata

It may well be that the account is being dealt with by a officer and they are following the council's normal process for this. You could ask for the matter to be referred upwards to a senior officer in the finance deparment.

sloughflint

Ratty67, I do think that this creature will get her comeuppance one way or another and her plan to cash in on joint accounts passing by survivorship will backfire.

I've not been in a position where there have been insufficient assets to pay bills but this thread has made me muse on where exactly responsibilities lie.

As far as I can tell the funeral is a priority debt of the estate ( list of priority order in point 13 here ) but it is the responsibility of the arranger to settle the bill and reclaim the cost from the estate.
So going by what you put in an earlier post, it looks as though the lady's beneficiaries will eventually be entitled to a share of the sum of £150 assuming no other money went missing.

I'm not sure if I would bargain with this woman regarding fraud if she was willing to pay both bills.Two reasons:

1.You may later find that other money has gone missing over the years ( perhaps even before Social services made their financial assessment).

2. That verbal agreement could be 'forgotten' by this woman and she'd be perfectly entitled to claim the £2600 odd funeral bill from the estate and from above link:

You could become liable (responsible) for the debts if you pay the beneficiaries without having cleared all the debts first.

When dealing with the LA, I would if the case, emphasise the point that this joint account was solely funded by the deceased. The reason being that any 'use' by the co-owner during the lady's lifetime ( albeit legitimate under joint account definitions) would constitute gifts by the lady and therefore ( hopefully) easily reclaimable by the LA directly from her.

I hope that would prevent the situation where daughter pays bill and then submits a request of reimbursement from the estate which I presume would happen under most ordinary circumstances. Then it would be back to your husband to 'fight' handing over the last £150 of the estate and himself needing to use the gifting aspect and inevitable legal bill attached.

I just think it might make things a bit simpler for your husband.

Errata

Does an executor have any wriggle room for bargaining? My understanding is that they take an oath to execute the estate properly and within the law.

sloughflint

Errata wrote: »

Does an executor have any wriggle room for bargaining? My understanding is that they take an oath to execute the estate properly and within the law.

My use of the word bargain was in direct response to this:

ratty67 wrote: »

I don't like to suggest it as it could be letting daughter off one heck of a big hook, but could we suggest daughter pays the funeral cost and LA bill and then we won't report her to the Police for fraud? (just because we won't doesn't mean no-one else will *ahem*)

A no-no in my view for reasons explained.

ratty67

My apologies, it was an ill thought through and throw away question borne out of pure frustration of the situation.

ratty67

DH has been informed today that the daughter has also submitted invoices to the solicitor that cover 'funeral expenses' that includes cost of the death certificate and the hire of the room she used for the wake.

Surely she can't claim them back? The total covers that last £150 give or take... The solicitor was very vague really.

We have however also been told (by solicitor) of an old insurance policy that actually belonged to the ladys deceased husband (funds never released). For how much we have no idea but anything right now will help.

No sign yet of the bank statements.

The solicitor seems to be trying to disuade DH from being executor (excuse being the estate may be insolvent). Having this insurance policy turn up means that very probably won't be the case but it has now made the solicitor now want to do some work and write letters. DH says it feels like she's happy for him to do the legwork but will then persuade him to stand aside.

Opinions anyone?