Unpaid Nursing Home fees after death - who is liable?

ratty67

See this is what I can't get my head around. The £7,500 came from 8 months of unpaid contributions. Why did she decide to pay in installments instead of just coughing up the money? It was going into the joint account after all. That's what is making everyone suspicious.

The LA have said she agreed to this installment plan. So why does this not appear to carry on after the lady's demise? Surely an installment plan means you pay up until the debt is cleared. After all, the agreement was between her and the LA, not the deceased!

We're eagerly awaiting the statements to show exactly WHEN this account was opened. The lady was of sound mind in May 2005 when she made out her will. The daughter took her back to the solicitors two months later and again the solicitor was satisfied she was of sound mind and knew exactly what she wanted. The solicitor remembers the daughter well - and not in a good way!

We wonder if that was when she took her Mum to the bank to open the joint account. Trouble is, being of sound mind doesn't equate to being financially savvy. She'd been married for 50 years to a man who made ALL financial decisions. She couldn't write a cheque or use an ATM. She certainly wouldn't have understood that signing the bank mandate meant her daughter would gain the bank account after her death. And yes, daughter was well aware of her Mum's financial blindspot.

We're just angry and upset that someone could take advantage of their own flesh and blood like this. Errata - I'll pass on your compliments to DH. Probably won't get his head back out the door again Chewing this over on here helps so much, stops us feeling quite so up against things.

Thanks so much everyone.

monkeyspanner

From past experience with other LA finance disputes the LA will chase whoever they think is the softest target. Essentially they will just want the money and not be too interested in where it comes from or what the right course of action would be. As they have had problems with the daughter and payments in the past she will probably not be at the top of their list of targets.

ratty67

monkeyspanner - would a letter from the solicitor to the LA help persuade them to look to the daughter and not at the estate?

Equally (and cheaper) would it help if DH rang them himself and told them the estate has no funds and therefore they'll have to chase daughter?

Understand totally about being the soft target. We answer our phone, she doesn't :rolleyes:

sloughflint

FWIW this is what I think I'd do in your husband's shoes once the statements have been examined.

Write a letter to the LA explaining that there are insufficient funds in the estate to cover the bill. You are aware of a joint account funded entirely by income from the deceased which has now passed to the daughter by survivorship. Suggest they deal with her directly.

If lawyers are to be employed then that can be between LA and daughter.They can decide whether to go down the deprivation of assets angle or signature of contract angle.

edit:
I would also hold off paying for the funeral for a while and check where you stand on that front.Ideally that should come out of the 'joint' account too since it was solely funded by the deceased.If HMRC consider it to be an account belonging solely to the deceased for tax purposes, how far can this idea be pushed?

Hopefully daughter will simply cave in and cough up for both bills just for a quiet life and then at least the grandchildren would get some inheritance as the lady wanted.

Errata

Thinking further about this - why isn't the Care Home dunning for the shortfall ? The contract is with the home not the LA; tsurely he LA merely makes up any shortfall, it doesn't pay the full amount and then get reimbursed.

ratty67

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Excellent point Errata.

The nursing home stated that the LA were paying them and then claiming back from the daughter, the LA have said the same thing. Maybe this came about because daughter proved to be a reluctant payer?

The LA's website states they will take legal action against non-payers. I assume that means the representitive of the resident when the resident is incapable of managing their own affairs.

So why haven't they? (yeah, I know, chase the soft target)

sloughflint - DH is in good contact with the funeral directors, they are sending repeated reminders to the daughter. Daughter is still on the 'missing' list, she's definately not going to answer their calls or letters any time soon. Her poor Mother's ashes need interring and daughter is the one who has to give the go ahead. If DH had been allowed to arrange the funeral she'd have already been laid to rest i can assure you!

Talking of deprevation of assets, wonder where all the deceased's furniture and valuable collectables went. Another rhetorical question... Daughter "doesn't know where it all went..." She must suffer amnesia

I don't like to suggest it as it could be letting daughter off one heck of a big hook, but could we suggest daughter pays the funeral cost and LA bill and then we won't report her to the Police for fraud? (just because we won't doesn't mean no-one else will *ahem*)

Thanks again to everyone for their thoughts, it's giving us plenty to go on for the long weekend!

Errata

Every cloud has a silver lining. Executors don't have to work at the speed of light to settle an estate. They have to make sure all that is owing is collected before they can pay any debts. Time is on your side, a complaint can be made to the probate office about the executor's slowness but in this case I think the probate office would be on your side.
It's odd that the LA were happy to pay all the fee and wait to be reimbursed, and makes no financial sense. Perhaps sight of their policy on care home fee funding etc would make an interesting read.

ratty67

I've just double checked on the LA's website. It definately says you pay them and they pay the Nursing Home.

I think we need to find out who the lady's Social Worker was. Ignore the finance department and see if DH can talk to her/him instead.

DH has no intention of rushing anything, the benefactors are all kept up to date with what's happening and they're all happy with DH's handling of things. That helps!

Errata

ratty67 wrote: »

I've just double checked on the LA's website. It definately says you pay them and they pay the Nursing Home.

How odd - how do people know the LA is paying all the money over ? I wonder if residents/their relative get a copy of the bill/invoice?

I think we need to find out who the lady's Social Worker was. Ignore the finance department and see if DH can talk to her/him instead.

The social worker should have carried out at least one care review during the 12 months preceding the lady's death. One approach with social services would be to bring to their attention the suggestion of fraud which Action on Elder Abuse gave you, and ask for a meeting with the social worker and their manager - and do they want the police to be present. But keep on with Finance, if you feel you're not getting as much help and info as you need ask for the discussion to be kicked up to a senior officer.

DH has no intention of rushing anything, the benefactors are all kept up to date with what's happening and they're all happy with DH's handling of things. That helps!
/QUOTE]

It must be satisfying to have their backing.

monkeyspanner

ratty67 wrote: »

monkeyspanner - would a letter from the solicitor to the LA help persuade them to look to the daughter and not at the estate?

Equally (and cheaper) would it help if DH rang them himself and told them the estate has no funds and therefore they'll have to chase daughter?

Understand totally about being the soft target. We answer our phone, she doesn't :rolleyes:

Sorry about the delay.
I don't think I would involve a solicitor at the moment. As other posters have said executors normally move at a pretty slow pace. So I would tell both LA and funeral directors that there is likely to be insufficient funds to cover the liabilities and that you believe the LA backpayments are the daughter's responsibility as she was in control of the joint account which was in receipt of the pensions which were sufficient to pay the mother's fee contributions.