Unpaid Nursing Home fees after death - who is liable?

sloughflint

How dreadful.
I wonder therefore if the technicality of gifting and therefore deprivation is an avenue then?

The problem might be trying to obtain statements since the account legally belongs to daughter now.The bank will have to give the executor a tax certificate for interest on the deceased's share up to date of death but not sure whether there is an entitlement to obtain statements?

Action on elder abuse as a starting point is a good suggestion from Errata to find out legalities.

ratty67

sloughflint wrote: »

How dreadful.
I wonder therefore if the technicality of gifting is an avenue then?

The problem might be trying to obtain statements since the account legally belongs to daughter now.

Action on elder abuse is a good suggestion from Errata.

Thank you all!

The estates team at the bank have promised to send all statements from the joint account up until the date of the ladies death (the dates the account was joint). The person DH spoke to cleared it with his manager, we'll wait and see if they turn up. Anything after that is, as stated, the daughters and unfortunately irrelevant to the estate. DH has access to no paperwork at all relating to the deceased, the daughter has it all and unsurprisingly isn't parting with any of it. DH is having to do this the hard way.

I've googled Action on Elder Abuse (thank you Errata) and DH will phone them tomorrow.

sloughflint

ratty67 wrote: »

The estates team at the bank have promised to send all statements from the joint account up until the date of the ladies death (the dates the account was joint).

Thinking about it since, that makes complete sense. Even if a co-owner objects, the executors have a duty to complete various tax returns so banks shouldn't withhold access to statements dated prior to death which will contain important information.

What an awful job for your husband. It certainly brings home that joint accounts are not a good idea for administrative purposes. This was suggested as an option by the bank to my family. I was very uncomfortable about the idea.

Lasting Power of Attorney would have been so much better.I hope you get somewhere.

monkeyspanner

I think I would go back to the council's finance department and say that as they allowed the debt to arise it is up to them to chase the deceased daughter who was the financial representative for the outstanding debt. The beneficiaries of the will should also be made aware of the situation as they are the ones who will lose out. Essentially this could be sorted out amongst the family and if it isn't your DH can if he wishes decline to be executor.

Sloughflint is absolutely correct the joint account route is often suggested by banks in this circumstance and is entirely inappropriate and open to abuse.

sloughflint

http://www.firststopcareadvice.org.uk/downloads/resources/2338.pdf

Section 21 If the transfer took place no
more than six months before being
assessed by the local authority and
admission to residential accommodation
provided under part III of the National
Assistance Act. The liability for the
assessed charge can be recovered from the
third party receiving the capital asset.

Reading this, I hope that will cover the usage from the joint account ( that was solely funded by the deceased) and it's up to the LA to reclaim it from the daughter.

ratty67

Thank you!

DH is currently chewing over todays phone calls.

He called Action on Elder Abuse first, they essentially told him to gather together all bank statements etc and then go to the police quoting the 2006 Fraud Act, the section relating to Fraud by Abuse of Position.

He then called the Public Guardian's office, they're sending out a form to fill in to tell us whether or not the daughter had Power of Attorney (we suspect not).

He's also been back onto the Social Service finance department. They became helpful when the word 'police' was mentioned.

We now know the exact dates the lady was in residential care (the start date is important in relation to this joint account) and the fact that from July 07 until Mar 08 NOTHING was being paid to Social Services. The amount owing at that point was a whopping £7,500. The daughter then paid each month with a bit on top to clear the arrears. Interesting how the story is slightly different each time we talk to someone!

So, if this version is accurate, instead of getting away with £1,700 as we first thought, she's actually had seven and a half grand.

Social Services should have been onto this surely? It's a screamingly obvious case of Elder Abuse. They seem to have willfully allowed an elderly person to be financially taken advantage of. Disgusting.

DH is adamant he will continue as executor. The old lady in question was lovely, wouldn't hurt a fly. He says he owes it to her to sort this mess out.

Oh and I'm also trawling my way through the Mental Capacity Act. Nice light reading for a Thursday afternoon!

Errata

Ratty :T:T:T you and your OH going great guns and doing so well !

One thing you might want to check out with Social Services is who signed the lady's contract with the care home? Was it her, or the devoted daughter ? If she signed it herself then SS should have worked with her to ensure her pension etc went towards her fees, if the devoted daughter signed it on her behalf I think that makes the daughter responsible.
Sometimes SS can be a bit lax about who is officially liable and make informal arrangements with relatives.
As you're talking to SS you could try asking them when care reviews for this lady were carried out, because if I'm remembering correctly her finances would have been part of that review. Should happen every six months.
I'm so pleased Action on Elder Abuse were so helpful, sadly they have an awful lot of experience of financial abuse.
If the lady had a social worker, and as part of her fees were being paid by the LA she probably did, part of a SW duty is to protect their clients from abuse and rescue them from abusive situations.
Keep 'em all hopping !

monkeyspanner

Ratty - going back to your original post you mention there is barely enough in the savings account to cover the funeral expenses. If the estate does not have sufficient to pay for the funeral costs they become the responsibility of the person arranging the funeral. Does this bring the issue back to the daughter paying either the care home backpayments or the funeral expenses if she arranged the funeral as there is not enough to pay both from the estate?

I admire your OH for sticking with it. Is it simply the issue of the backpayments or is OH inclined to widening the issue to see the extent of possible missing funds?

ratty67

monkeyspanner - to answer your question regarding the savings account. There is enough there to cover the funeral with £150 left over. Or seen another way, enough to cover the care home bill with just over £1000 left over. Certainly nowhere near enough for both.

Yes, daughter arranged the funeral and paid a deposit of around £600. She has of course demanded swift return of this via the solicitor. She's not talking to the funeral director now either and is still to arrange for her Mothers ashes to be interred.

DH is most interested in widening the net. He's already sent letters to one Building Society and an Insurance Company as there's a missing account (that we know the deceased had) and where the heck has the life insurance gone?

He's also asked for a trace of dormant bank accounts with the British Banker's Association (through my lost account dot org). Maybe there was an account or two the daughter didn't know about! Could we be that lucky?

Errata - Yes the daughter signed all the paperwork regarding her Mum's contract with the care home. Mum had dementia so wasn't capable of signing anything. The LA say they will take court action against anyone who doesn't pay. So why is everyone trying to pass it onto the estate now. Surely it remains the daughter's liability.

My head is starting to spin!

Errata

Your DH sounds terrific, all power to his elbow !

Off the top of my head -

If the daughter signed the contract SHE is responsible for ensuring the fees are paid. She is the one who will be taken to court if the bill isn't paid and where she gets the money from is her problem. Of course, all she has to do is cough up the pension money !

The estate is responsible for gathering in assets and collecting debts, so when the daughter pays what she has contracted to pay she could try claiming it from the estate. Which may total a few quid, as the first claim on an estate is the funeral bill followed by any other debts which are paid if there is any money left after it's been paid. However, the person who arranges the funeral is the person who is responsible for ensuring the bill is paid.

Can you ascertain if the joint bank account was opened whilst the lady had mental capacity ? If she hadn't capacity the Bank needs to be involved if they weren't advised that she didn't have capacity when the application forms for the account were completed by the lady and daughter and the account was openened.

Isn't this an awful situation, thank goodness there are good and smart people like your OH in this world.

HTH