Unpaid Nursing Home fees after death - who is liable?

sloughflint

ratty67 wrote: »

If the paper trail proves she had all the money then the LA will chase the daughter and leave the estate alone. The manager could see for herself from their records how badly the daughter had dealt with things and she believes the daughter is liable.

Marvellous news. I was always hopeful if it got that far that the main legal battle would be between LA and daughter but worried that they wouldn't care and just leave it to the estate to sort.

If it does, the bigger picture will have emerged and fingers crossed all the other money that the executor has a duty to retrieve will be more easily recoverable without having to go through a separate legal battle.

Fingers crossed.

Mrsmoneypenny

I do hope you get back and let us know how things are going. I have read your story, so far, and it is riveting.

Good luck

moggylover

sloughflint wrote: »

For online banking, a person must have power of attorney. Being a signatory on an account is not good enough.

DWP should be able to give you details of where the pension was being paid to.

This woman is going to get into a lot of trouble.[/QUOTE]


Oh good!:D

To the Op, there are people far better qualified than I to give you advice here but I could not read and run. Good luck with this dreadful situation and I sincerely hope that the intended inheritors get a reasonable share and that the daughter her just deserts, certainly sounds to me as if she should be paying back what she has obviously helped herself to! Good on yourself and your OH for being so intent on getting justice for both the grandchildren and the old lady.

I too had a "joint account" with my mum, and most of the money in it was what she had saved (nothing dramatic, a £1,000 or so which fluctuated) but would never have dreamed of removing a single penny of it without her permission and even felt awkward doing so whilst she was dying (we both knew) and she was aware that I was struggling to fund being with her every day and night and yet still pop home to see my kids for a wee while when they came home from school. I had her explicit instructions to draw my petrol money from that account, and to take cash from her purse for something to eat at the hospital but it still felt "wrong" and I cannot conceive of how dreadful a person one must be to take advantage of any other person (let alone ones mother!!!!!) in the way that this daughter has.

Edited to add: I was the sole beneficiary of her will so I wasn't depriving anyone else of anything and yet I still did not like the feeling!

ratty67

Wow! Thank you so much everyone. Your collective help and messages of support are really appreciated. I can feel everyone here is rooting for DH!

Yesterday we went to the building society to register the lady's death with them. They couldn't have been more helpful and if we now have any questions we can either phone their estates team or go into the branch. We also got a printout of transactions on the account there and then. What a contrast from the bank!

The ladies state pension was going in there up until 24/10/05 and then it vanishes like a puff of smoke. So it must have been going into the daughters account. We've looked everywhere else!

This account is untouched by the daughter. Maybe this is because the lady set it up (in 1996) for her needs, no cheque book, no ATM card, no anything else. The only way she could take money out was over the counter which was the only method she understood. She was also very well known in the branch so I don't think the daughter would have been able to mess with the money. It also proves a point that the daughter didn't have financial control or that account would have gone the same way as the other two.

DH also had a VERY interesting phone call with a member of the Mental Health Team at the LA. HE was the lady's key worker and remembers her very fondly. He checked all notes and every page on her file on the computer and he could find NO record of anyone having any financial powers whatsoever over the bank accounts. Zero. Zilch. Nada. He's also pretty sure he'd remember if any powers had been obtained.

Unfortunately DH was also the recipient of a 'mildly nasty' phone call yesterday evening from the daughter's son-in-law demanding to know why he's looking at bank statements etc. I don't think they like the fact DH is getting to the truth of matters. Why make threats if there's no wrongdoing?

Errata

Ratty - excellent news about the MH keyworker. The keyworker has responsibility for ensuring a client without capacity, like the lady, is not physically, emotionally, sexually or financially abused ! In your shoes I'd be asking him how often he reviewed the lady's care plan -which would include the state of her finances and how her care fees were being paid.

I guess the only response an executor can give to anyone enquiring about an estate when it's in such a muddle as this one seems to be would be "I'm sorry, I'm not in a position to discuss the estate at the moment".
and repeat the phrase as necessary !

Keep up the good work !

monkeyspanner

Hi Ratty

Well done on the progress you have made so far.

If I have understood your posts you can see the lady's pension payments up to 2005 and then there is no record of payments into any account that you have records for. This means that the DWP were instructed to change bank payment instructions. This is interesting as when we were dealing with my MIL's finances DWP would not even talk to us without MIL giving permission on each telephone conversation and this continued until my wife had POA for her Mum. So how were the bank instructions changed? The only assumption I can make is that DWP thought they had proper new instructions from the lady. If this is the case then they should be able to provide this information even if you just say you are trying to trace the bank account. However, it seems entirely possible that a change of bank instruction was improperly made or that the lady was persuaded to sign a change without realising what she was doing.

If relatives are getting upset about checking bank statements I would say your DH (and you of course) are getting unpleasantly close to the truth and someone is getting worried.

ratty67

monkeyspanner - the finance manager at the LA said she would do the checks with the DWP too see where the pension was going. She has stated that if the daughter was receiving it (via whatever dubious means) that makes her liable for the care home bill. Once we have an answer back from her DH will be pushing the DWP himself to find out the ins and outs of it all.

Two questions this evening if nobody minds.

1) There is a will and you are not a named beneficiary. You are a somewhat 'shady' character and decide to tell everyone the deceased died intestate in order to claim assets. How much trouble would one get into? There is a VERY good reason for me asking this question...

2) We are aware that shares should be passed to the next of kin. When that has happened the once, do they have to be passed down again in the same manner or can they be sold with the proceeds split between beneficiaries?

Errata

She has stated that if the daughter was receiving it (via whatever dubious means) that makes her liable for the care home bill.

oops :rotfl:

1) Sounds like fraud ! Trying to obtain whatevers by decepton, which I think is a criminal offence.

2) Haven't a clue, but someone else may be able to post the answer.

monkeyspanner

Ratty
This gets better and better(sorry not much fun for you and OH) but it does sound like you are dealing with some real idiots on the other side of this.
1) It should not be possible to simply use the claim of an intestate estate to claim an asset. If there is no will then a relative or group of up to 4 relatives can apply to the probate office for letters of administration. Without these no reputable financial organisation will release funds. I guess that if someone made this claim knowing there was a will with the aim of obtaining the asset this could be viewed as fraud. If this is going on I think my first call would be to your nearest probate office and take their advice and my second might well be to the police. I assume that if this lady died with no surviving spouse then we are talking about one of her children as they would share her estate equally if she died intestate.

2) I believe that as soon as the executor obtains probate then he/she can decide what to do about any asset including shares. Most executors would take account of the beneficiaries wishes but strictly this is not necessary. For obtaining probate purposes the value of the shares at the date of death is the relevant value.

localhero

Ratty, well done with things so far. I must say that I'm surprised that the local authority are taking a proactive stance in pursuing the daughter - particularly as many would be tempted to take the easier option of turning to the executor for their fees.

If a relative - (ie the daughter as next of kin) - pitches up at a bank with a death certificate, then it's quite feasible they would give her the proceeds without a grant of probate - particularly if the balance is below 5k. This is fraud, and a criminal offence.

Perhaps once you've uncovered all the skeletons you will be able to persuade the police to take action against her for all the other wrongdoing that has taken place.

ratty67 wrote:

2) We are aware that shares should be passed to the next of kin. When that has happened the once, do they have to be passed down again in the same manner or can they be sold with the proceeds split between beneficiaries?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but if shares were left to a single beneficiary then it is customary for the executors to ask the beneficiary if they want the shares sold or transferred into their name.

If the shares are to be divided between a number of beneficiaries or as part of the residue they will usually be sold.