UPDATED: Air Source Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide, is it cheaper to run than mains gas?

Cardew

mario2013 wrote: »

Very good document this thank you, slide 37 gives 'default' SPFs which have rightly been reduced for untested equipment.

The PCDF incorporates a wide range of heat sources including heat pumps, it gives additional savings in kWh/year for using tested equipment, this can be translated to a SPF, above 3 is achievable with both ASHP and GSHP.

COP figures from manufacturers are something like MPG figures from car manufacturers.

Nobody disputes that 'above 3 is achievable' however only 2 installations of 29 ASHPs tested by the EST in a 12 month trial achieved that figure.

There are so many factors in the installation that affect overall performance - not least defrosting - and producing Hot Water.

It is about time that manufacturers took responsibilty for all installations and gave some guaranteed performance figures for each installation.

Also the prices charged for both ASHP and GSHP installations beggar belief. Even for ASHPs people can pay £12,000 plus and GSHPs a lot more.

A replacement Oil CH boiler might cost say £3,000. The loss of interest(or cost of borrowing) on the additional £9,000 would be at least £300 which would go a long way to offsetting oil running costs.

Then there is the factor that to be effective heat pumps should be run virtually constantly. For people out at work all day that is wasted electricity.

[Deleted User]

Cardew wrote: »

A replacement Oil CH boiler might cost say £3,000. The loss of interest(or cost of borrowing) on the additional £9,000 would be at least £300 which would go a long way to offsetting oil running costs..

Can I question your price comparison?

Yes a replacement oil boiler may be £3000...

My replacement 14Kw Ecodan ASHP [boiler] was £4600 fitted. Ok I didn't pay for it but saw the invoice...

Not a great deal of difference considering the fuel savings and RHI, certainly better than the interest earned by going down the oil route or heaven forbid LPG. I think so many people get used to paying high prices for oil/lpg they simply cant image how cheap an ASHP can be Set to run only when we are home so no wasted heat.

Yes if you add on pipework replacement, controls, DHW/Buffer tanks, oversized rads, fancolis & ufh etc then yes the price will climb as it would for any central heating system install/upgrade.

Cheers

Cardew

jeepjunkie wrote: »

Can I question your price comparison?

Yes a replacement oil boiler may be £3000...

My replacement 14Kw Ecodan ASHP [boiler] was £4600 fitted. Ok I didn't pay for it but saw the invoice...

I posted this before but nobody commented.

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=351450ced12884a5&resid=351450CED12884A5!173&id=351450CED12884A5!173

It is a report commissioned by some major heat pump manufacturers(Mitsubishi, Daiken etc) and Utility companies.

Essentially it is a plea(pressure group) to enable bigger subsidies to users to make heat pumps financially viable - without those subsidies they won't compete.

It also acknowledges there are a lot of improvements required - both in performance and noise reduction.

Anyway to your specific question it gives the costs, 'based on surveyed industry average(includes installation costs)' as £9,500 for an ASHP and £17,500 for a GSHP for a 3 bed semi. - see page 25 and 26 of report.

mario2013

Not possible for manufacturers of a product that is sensitive to design, installation and usage patterns to take control of the performance level to be expected in specific scenarios, remember the same applies to fossil fuel based systems which rarely achieve close to the claimed figures in reality.

For such a suggestion to work the heating industry may as well install their own products and not sell them to anyone except direct to the end user, even then was with anything of such a scale there is no way a business could police this and make a decent profit.

The EST report is old and outdated, the assistance of manufacturers was very limited, the systems were poorly selected and on the whole riddled with faults, it is accepted that things have moved on since then

There are of course still instances of very poor standards being followed as is the case in any industry. You need to remember that in general people come on here if they have problems, less likely you will hear from the thousands of people living with systems who are perfectly happy.

John_Pierpoint

mario2013 wrote: »

Very good document this thank you, slide 37 gives 'default' SPFs which have rightly been reduced for untested equipment.

The PCDF incorporates a wide range of heat sources including heat pumps, it gives additional savings in kWh/year for using tested equipment, this can be translated to a SPF, above 3 is achievable with both ASHP and GSHP.

The SAP is a bit more serious than that. It will go on a Europe wide database of building efficiency. The standard will have to be achieved for building regulations and planning permission. It will be released to prospective purchasers and almost certainly be used for any further subsidies, such as the Renewable Heat Initiative.

[I am not sure how the powers-that-be are going to force users to make suitable use of their new homes. Most people have been raised on oversized gas central heating "[I]the fuel that obeys you[/I]" and get frustrated using a compact fluorescent energy saving light bulb, because it may not be instant in cold weather, let alone planning tomorrow's performance of a heat pump.]

Cardew

mario2013 wrote: »

The EST report is old and outdated, the assistance of manufacturers was very limited, the systems were poorly selected and on the whole riddled with faults, it is accepted that things have moved on since then

Much as the heat pump industry would like to be dismissive of the embarrasing EST trial, it still stands.(I assume you work in the industry?)

How do you conclude it was 'riddled with faults' - the EST have extended the trial for 12 months to try and 'learn lessons'. All the main manufacturers were all involved in the initial 12 month trial and as far as I am aware they neither they, EST or their consultants, have made any adverse comment about the trial procedure and results either then, or subsequently.

So if you have that information about the trial, can you please provide a source.

poorly selected? why?

Riddled with faults? why?

You might like to state on this forum that things have moved on, perhaps you can back that with some independant evidence from trials? Indeed all the evidence is pointing toward the building industry moderating their expectations and claims of performance - see the report posted above.

http://www.house-builder.co.uk/documents/BR12-DYFRIGHUGHES.pdf

The position is still that people are expected to fork out £10,000 or more for an ASHP system with absolutely no guarantee it will work well, and only discover the problems when hit with huge bills. Look at the NIBE debacle.

Without the manufacturers guarantees, customers just take pot luck. How many ASHP salesmen from installation firms will tell a customer that their house is just not suitable.

[Deleted User]

Cardew wrote: »

I posted this before but nobody commented.

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=351450ced12884a5&resid=351450CED12884A5!173&id=351450CED12884A5!173

It is a report commissioned by some major heat pump manufacturers(Mitsubishi, Daiken etc) and Utility companies.

Essentially it is a plea(pressure group) to enable bigger subsidies to users to make heat pumps financially viable - without those subsidies they won't compete.

It also acknowledges there are a lot of improvements required - both in performance and noise reduction.

Anyway to your specific question it gives the costs, 'based on surveyed industry average(includes installation costs)' as £9,500 for an ASHP and £17,500 for a GSHP for a 3 bed semi. - see page 25 and 26 of report.

I thought you would have been pleasantly surprised at how close a direct like for like replacement costs are?

As a real comparison to a new ASHP install how much would new oil system from scratch be?

Boiler
2000lt tank
tank base
all new plumbing inside and out
new electrics to boiler
oil level monitoring and security
DHW tank and controls
New quality rads
etc

The diff is not great espcially when you consider the hideous oil running costs. I know I had oil a long time ago...

Cheers

Cardew

jeepjunkie wrote: »

I thought you would have been pleasantly surprised at how close a direct like for like replacement costs are?

As a real comparison to a new ASHP install how much would new oil system from scratch be?

Boiler
2000lt tank
tank base
all new plumbing inside and out
new electrics to boiler
oil level monitoring and security
DHW tank and controls
New quality rads
etc

The diff is not great espcially when you consider the hideous oil running costs. I know I had oil a long time ago...

Cheers

If you had read that report the same pages(24 and 25) that gives cost streams of £9,500 and £17,500 for ASHP/GSHP installation gives a price of £3,700 for oil CH.

It also gives detailed asumptions of fuel costs etc etc.

The whole thrust of the report is that heat pumps don't compete even with oil - let alone gas - and need long term subsidies in the shape of RHI to get some take up.

Overall, RHI support for heat pumps makes strong strategic sense and fits the
UK’s long term energy and climate plans. A lower than 10-year RHI tariff
accompanied with deployment-based tariff degression presents significant merits
for consumers and industry and represents a cost-effective solution for the
Government to meet binding renewable and emissions abatement targets

Cardew

jeepjunkie wrote: »

The diff is not great espcially when you consider the hideous oil running costs. I know I had oil a long time ago...

Cheers

Continuing the theme, most people on here are not considering the cost of installing an new CH system from scratch in a new house. They are considering retro-fitting an ASHP/GSHP or replacing LPG/Oil/Gas/Solid Fuel boiler.

If they go for replacing an oil boiler they already have a oil tank, radiators etc. With a combi, they don't need a HW tank, with an ASHP they do.

Just taking your point on 'hideous' oil running costs.

Oil is currently around 51p to 52p a litre, so approx 5.1p/kWh - a new boiler with a theoretical 90+% efficiency brings that to 5.5p/kWh so let us say 6p/kWh.

How does that compare with ASHP running costs - taking the cost of producing Hot Water? If John Pierpoint's research indicates an overall COP of 2.3 then we are not too far different from the 6p/kWh - say 5p/kWh; and COP = 2.3 is better than the EST trial average.

If the figure of COP1.6 to radiators is realistic then costs are higher than oil.

Then a point I keep repeating, and acknowledged by the EST, if you are out at work the ASHP is still producing(wasted) heat during the day as it is not capable of bringing a house quickly back up to temperature like oil/gas CH with water at 80+C through the radiators.

[Deleted User]

Cardew wrote: »

If you had read that report the same pages(24 and 25) that gives cost streams of £9,500 and £17,500 for ASHP/GSHP installation gives a price of £3,700 for oil CH.

It also gives detailed asumptions of fuel costs etc etc.

The whole thrust of the report is that heat pumps don't compete even with oil - let alone gas - and need long term subsidies in the shape of RHI to get some take up.

Hmm...

Comparing chalk and cheese then.

Hardly a fair comparison...