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Failure and bitterness.
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longtimelurker wrote: »Do you not receive banding then? The F1s I know take £32k before tax, before locum work, before forms (you know the ones I mean) etc.
The career path is a solid one, with your next pay rise being £6-9k and then increasing even more as you progress. Great pension too!
I know it's not the best salary to start out on after such study and that being a doctor is a lot harder work than people give it credit for, but I think playing down pay isn't the right thing to do either.
I agree with you entirely.
Sadly I am not banded for 2/3 of my rotations. There are no fully banded posts in our trust, and almost all will be unbanded or at least down banded from August. This is due to stupid EWTD. However, this does not mean I work unbanded hours, and we are currently in negotiation with the BMA to try and get either our hours reduced or our pay increased. i.e. what we are currently doing is illegal. Unfortately for us, the trust hasn't yet provided us with a contract (6 months in to the job!), so we haven't got any proof of our contracted hours, and we were encouraged to lie on the monitoring forms to make it look like we work fewer hours than we do. (I didn't but a lot of people did). I hope our pay gets increased and we keep the banded hours - I learn most out of hours, so want to keep that experience.
Unfortunately, it's also almost impossible to get locum work as we can only work within the trust and there are 62 FY1s all trying to get locum work! I have had one 4 hour shift in 6 months. (Despite ringing up twice a week, every week to medical staffing). The "forms"; I have had a few on my last job (elderly care) but none on this rotation, and very doubtful any on the next (obs and gynae, so hopefully none).
I agree that the pension and progression are good and would never deny that. I am very grateful as my boyfriend is a police officer so also has an excellent pension scheme. Some friends aren't contributing to the pension which in my opinion is financial suicide when given the option of a good scheme. I was lucky in that I worked for the NHS during uni so I am in the old final salary scheme whereas the vast majority of my peers aren't.
I just need to get on a specialist training scheme and then I will be sorted in terms of job security. Like I said I don't complain on a daily basis about my pay, but I think most people are not aware of the level of pay acheived by junior doctors and it does annoy me that people think it's some sort of passport to riches and an easy life. Even the final year students we were talking to today were expecting 40K a year (they start in August!).
And before anyone starts, I am only online because we have an hour's protected teaching time which has finished 10 mins early!
Totally off topic sorry, it is just something that is on our minds at the moment with the issues with the BMA.
Anyway to get back to topic, hopefully will never have to claim benefits, but I will pay my way in the system and if god forbid something happens to me in the future and I cannot work, I will be grateful for the benefit system in this country. There are flaws, yes, but we should be glad it exists at all, as we all may need it at some point in our lives. None of us know what is round the corner!0 -
scousethife wrote: »Hopefully I made it 25
I know (suprisingly ) 2 people who have a free car cos of depression ...
Neither of them have any intention of changing the situation because, quote "I got a new car thats free"/quote]
These T*ATS really do wind me up, :mad: because it is obvious that they do not have depression, at worst they are just a bit pizzed off, By depression I mean full on clinical depression, if they did have a real full scale depression then they should not be driving full stop.
If they have a REAL depression, then point 1, they will be unable to sleep without the assistance of sleeping pills, 2, they will be on anti-depressants, so both mean they are a danger on the roads, 3, the last thing on their minds will be going out for a cruise in the motor, getting out of bed is a challenge.0 -
Failure and bitterness
So after 11 pages have you lot agreed that failure leads to bitterness? It would certainly seem that way to me, the more of a failure you perceive yourself to be, the more bitter you feel about it.
Oh well. Life sucks for some. As some of you lot would say - tough - get over it.0 -
It probably does reflect the views of people accross the country. Unfortunately it will likely take 17 months for this to manifest itself overtly, but the sentiment is definitely brewing, in the way it did in the late 70's. Even hardcore labour voters couldn't bear to have them in government anymore after the winter of discontent. This is Winter of Discontent 2, and the vibe is pretty much the same.
Since I know hard care labour supporters who purposely did not renew their party membership during Tony Blair's second term, and the fact that lots of posts supporting Labour just state the Tory's are worse, I think that people who are still voting Labour are doing it out of ignorance and fear of the unknown.
And I don't think any government will sort out the benefits system because it will cost them more money to do this then keeping people on the dole. Sorting out community volunteering jobs, proper training and child care costs more money then keeping people on benefits.I'm not cynical I'm realistic
(If a link I give opens pop ups I won't know I don't use windows)0 -
im sure i read that significantly more money is defrauded from 'us' by tax cheats than benefit cheats?
how come no outrage at businesses and the very rich bending and breaking the rules to avoid tax?0 -
scousethife wrote: »Hopefully I made it 25
I know (suprisingly ) 2 people who have a free car cos of depression ...
Neither of them have any intention of changing the situation because, quote "I got a new car thats free"/quote]
These T*ATS really do wind me up, :mad: because it is obvious that they do not have depression, at worst they are just a bit pizzed off, By depression I mean full on clinical depression, if they did have a real full scale depression then they should not be driving full stop.
If they have a REAL depression, then point 1, they will be unable to sleep without the assistance of sleeping pills, 2, they will be on anti-depressants, so both mean they are a danger on the roads, 3, the last thing on their minds will be going out for a cruise in the motor, getting out of bed is a challenge.
Being on anti-depressants doesn't necessarily mean you are sleepy and so in theory you can still drive, however I agree with you that due to their sleeping problems (not every depressed person is given sleeping tablets) and depression they would hardly be driving around.I'm not cynical I'm realistic
(If a link I give opens pop ups I won't know I don't use windows)0 -
I agree with you entirely.
Sadly I am not banded for 2/3 of my rotations. There are no fully banded posts in our trust, and almost all will be unbanded or at least down banded from August. This is due to stupid EWTD. However, this does not mean I work unbanded hours, and we are currently in negotiation with the BMA to try and get either our hours reduced or our pay increased. i.e. what we are currently doing is illegal. Unfortately for us, the trust hasn't yet provided us with a contract (6 months in to the job!), so we haven't got any proof of our contracted hours, and we were encouraged to lie on the monitoring forms to make it look like we work fewer hours than we do. (I didn't but a lot of people did). I hope our pay gets increased and we keep the banded hours - I learn most out of hours, so want to keep that experience.
Unfortunately, it's also almost impossible to get locum work as we can only work within the trust and there are 62 FY1s all trying to get locum work! I have had one 4 hour shift in 6 months. (Despite ringing up twice a week, every week to medical staffing). The "forms"; I have had a few on my last job (elderly care) but none on this rotation, and very doubtful any on the next (obs and gynae, so hopefully none).
I agree that the pension and progression are good and would never deny that. I am very grateful as my boyfriend is a police officer so also has an excellent pension scheme. Some friends aren't contributing to the pension which in my opinion is financial suicide when given the option of a good scheme. I was lucky in that I worked for the NHS during uni so I am in the old final salary scheme whereas the vast majority of my peers aren't.
I just need to get on a specialist training scheme and then I will be sorted in terms of job security. Like I said I don't complain on a daily basis about my pay, but I think most people are not aware of the level of pay acheived by junior doctors and it does annoy me that people think it's some sort of passport to riches and an easy life. Even the final year students we were talking to today were expecting 40K a year (they start in August!).
And before anyone starts, I am only online because we have an hour's protected teaching time which has finished 10 mins early!
Totally off topic sorry, it is just something that is on our minds at the moment with the issues with the BMA.
Anyway to get back to topic, hopefully will never have to claim benefits, but I will pay my way in the system and if god forbid something happens to me in the future and I cannot work, I will be grateful for the benefit system in this country. There are flaws, yes, but we should be glad it exists at all, as we all may need it at some point in our lives. None of us know what is round the corner!
That there's so much variability between trusts is really awful. In terms of training as well as conditions and pay.
I find it difficult to believe (though not doubting the truth in the anecdote) that the final year medical students don't have any idea of the situation - they were fooled too, I suppose.
I don't know what you think, but I feel that (aside from the long hours, responsibility etc) part of the rate of pay is to compensate for the inconvenience of the way you have to live. I'm only the partner, but we have to move every year and never know with any accuracy when OH will be working. It's so hard to make plans - almost impossible - that I think you're partly compensated for having to live almost wholly for the job.
Anyway, sorry to drag this topic off-track...0 -
longtimelurker wrote: »I know, I can hardly believe they're simply removing banding! Luckily my partner has 50% banding for these first two years entirely (fingers crossed for ST posts over here too - another slog). The EWTD is a bugbear of mine, it's obviously yours too! It's such a betrayal to whip banding away - my OH didn't intercalate and those who did are kicking themselves bloody HARD.
That there's so much variability between trusts is really awful. In terms of training as well as conditions and pay.
I find it difficult to believe (though not doubting the truth in the anecdote) that the final year medical students don't have any idea of the situation - they were fooled too, I suppose.
I don't know what you think, but I feel that (aside from the long hours, responsibility etc) part of the rate of pay is to compensate for the inconvenience of the way you have to live. I'm only the partner, but we have to move every year and never know with any accuracy when OH will be working. It's so hard to make plans - almost impossible - that I think you're partly compensated for having to live almost wholly for the job.
Anyway, sorry to drag this topic off-track...
I know I was shocked too- apparently the medical school told them it would be about that! How disgusting is that? And trusts won't release banding details before you apply for posts, so you don't know how much you will be earning.
Your partner is in a lucky position in a way, I intercalated actually, and am now in the position of rubbish banding. If I had just stayed in my original year I would have been much better off AND had free accomodation in my first year.
It's really hard for us as my boyfriend works shifts, so went 10 weeks last year without having a weekend off at the same time. Getting annual leave is equally difficult, but at least I don't have to take it at a specific time like they do in lots of rotations that include A&E.
The problem is once they remove banding completely it will be the SHOs (ie me and your partner!) who pick up the pieces of the rota, doing the work of an FY1 AND an SHO at the same time overnight for instance.
The irony is in my trust that they can't fill their SHO vacancies, meaning they are employing locum SHOs to cover unfilled night vacancies because they took FY1s off the rota! It would have been so much cheaper and easier just to band the FY1s!
I also found out today that many other trusts give whole afternoon teaching sessions. We get one hour on a Wednesday afternoon.
Oh well, it's something to talk about with other doctors you don't have much in common with, at least you know we all agree on EWTD.
Wish your partner luck in their ST application. What are they applying for? I want to do anaesthetics, so fingers crossed.0 -
Theres a lot of bitterness in this thread- seemingly from many of those who
a) are working
b) can afford their own home, be it rented or mortgaged
c) seem to be able to afford a computer, and have the skills to use it
d) have parters/freinds/ family.
Look at your life. See how fortunate you are.
For once, just once. They are your blessings. For heavens sake count them before life really does get bad for you.:beer: Well aint funny how its the little things in life that mean the most? Not where you live, the car you drive or the price tag on your clothes.
Theres no dollar sign on piece of mind
This Ive come to know...
So if you agree have a drink with me, raise your glasses for a toast :beer:0 -
At what point did the safety net of benefits and allowances to help people who fall on bad luck or ill health become a lifestyle choice for the new underclass? My guess is 1981 when huge numbers of ex-industrial workers lost work and became "long-term sick". None of our pollies since have dealt with the issue.
Generations of long term unemployed have no clue that to get work you have to WANT to work, to be motivated and self reliant. Keeping people on these benefits is cruel
The first part of this post made a lot of sense! The second paragraph misses entirely the fact that many of the areas worst hit in the early 80's have not seen any appreciable influx of jobs since, and remain depressed and hopeless places to live.
The knee-jerk reaction at that time, when it was realised that the free market was not actually going to invest in those areas and had little use for the people there was to "shift" them on to longer term and more generous benefits instead of creating jobs. Many of them, by that time, were already seriously depressed (not in the acute and desperate stage, but past that to the hopeless and demoralised one) and many had health problems that come from that depression, so in many ways it was not actually a "lie" at that time.
However, at no time since has anything constructive been done to address the criminally depressed state of what were once proud working areas and the benefits just get increased to "keep the masses quiet". This has the second benefit that whilst most of middle Britain is moaning about the Daily Mails "lazy scroungers" they are not keeping their eye on the corruption above and so the old divide and rule system is working just perfectly;)
IMO what IS criminal is that the wealth at the top of our Country has grown massively in the last 15 - 20 years, and yet even with all of that at their finger-tips no-one was willing to invest in the most needy parts of our Country and attempt to give these people back sufficient work that they could return to work. It is absolutely NO flaming good keep telling people to work if there is no work for them - and despite all the protests to the contrary there simply is not work in many areas, nor enough help with re-training or even moving to areas where there are jobs."there are some persons in this World who, unable to give better proof of being wise, take a strange delight in showing what they think they have sagaciously read in mankind by uncharitable suspicions of them"(Herman Melville)0
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