Unions protest because contractors are using foreign workers at power station.

Max_Headroom_3

Right, I've finished the whole thread now, phew!!

If I might be allowed to sum up the anti immigrant worker argument, I believe it goes something like this.

They want a totally "level playing field" whereby there is no advantage given to anyone, British or foreign, everyone competes on absolutely identical terms regardless.

Oh, and they don't want foreigners to be allowed to have any jobs.

Brilliant!! :T

harrup

Any wrote: »

MRSTITTLEMOUSE wrote: »

You cannot go to an employer and dictate to him who to employ.

One would think, wouldn't one. Alas, no.

In our PC crazy world, an employer hasn't got as much discrection in who to employ as could be assumed.

Examples:

A friend of mine is a manager for cabin crew. He chose one applicant over another - actually over many, many others - and the airline was sued ( and lost) for racial discrimination. Why? Because he offered the vacancy to a caucasion applicant over a black one. He was totally devastated as the applicant's ethnic origin had never entered the equasion. Instead, the thwarted applicant had 3 young children, was single ( divorced) ...und unsociable, constantly changing flying hours don't mesh well with family commitments. Which is why he gave the job to someone who he felt would be more reliable. But the airline backed down as they feared negative publicity.

Another pal of mine was determined to join the probation office. She had applied several times and was repeatedly rejected. Whilst she has a British passport she originates from Russia. She threatened to take them to court for "cultural discrimination"....and hey, presto - her application was successful. Regardless of the fact that there were 200 + applications for that training vacancy. She knows that it had nothing to do with cultural discrimination, they know that wasn't the reason, either. But hey-ho ....she got what she wanted.

My personal favourite: A local multi GP surgery skated on VERY thin ice when trying to re-negotiate a Spanish GP's employment. Lovely, sunny fellow....but his English was so broken, so rudimentary, that it was impossible to make head or tail of what he said. Or whether he was able to understand the nature of the helath problem described by the patient. Hugely entertaining if one didn't really need sound medical advice. Patients complained to the surgery. He supposedly threatened to sue. He staid put ( for a while). Personally, I wouldn't take my dog to a vet who couldn't speak proper English or who I wasn't certain could understand what I conveyed to him. But worried parents had to make do with for their babies.

Summary: People can't employ only who they want. Nor can they can't fire who they don't want. There are few people in this country who couldn't successfully claim they have been "discriminated against" in one way or another when they don't get what they want. Be that in either getting a job or keeping a job. For either being too young, too old, overqualified, learning disabled, wrong gender, wrong race, wrong nationality, wrong sexual orientation, wrong health status, wrong ...something. All grounds for a lovely "no win- no fee" court case. No fee for the huffy claimant, that is. Major headache and expense for the company, of course. Yes, I AM exaggerating the situation....but you get the general picture.

And THAT headache is often hotly followed by delicious strikes. Employees strike for all manner of reasons. Frequently for getting paid as much as what they accepted when they applied for the job. A sum suddenly deemed wholly insufficient and exploitative once they have it. That is if their job doesn't lead to "stessful exhaustion" first and they are off sunning themselves for a month in their back garden. Quirky.

Why do you think so many of the big UK companies relocated to India and the Far East??? They simply don't get that kind of hassle over there. Contrary to popular belief it truly wasn't just to save on labour costs.

We made our politically correct bed.....and now we collectively have to lie in it. Whilst haplessly standing by and watching other countries nabbing much needed UK jobs. Galling. Who said that being the poster child for advanced PC "enlightenment" didn't have a steep price tag? We truly are the "enlightened" ones. Jobless - or job insecure - but enlightened. Brillo. Result!

Any

vivatifosi wrote: »

Chucky wasn't being rude Any, I think you need to go back and read the post in context.

I've realised the moment I posted it up...
Hell, wouldn't that be fun though... I mean if they did bring foreigner home. And they were proper mummy's/daddy's boy/girl. I would want to be there!!!

SailorSam

chucky wrote: »

I have no problem with immigrants.

Let's just hope that your son/daughter doesn't come home with someone that isn't British.

Why stop at sons and daughters. I hope my mother does'nt bring anyone home.
That's my inheritace.

louiser123

omelette451 wrote: »

Actually, I would absolutely love to go and work in any of those countries. Have you been there yourself? If not, how do you know conditions are meagre? I've been to all three of the countries you mention, and while it's true many people live in less than appealing conditions, there are many who have a very nice set-up. Rather similar to here, in fact. The reason people come here to work is because that way they can move up the ladder quicker than they would otherwise be able to. Let's not forget either that the benefit is mutual... We may pay (via the EU) for their initial development, but who do you think benefits from that development? Apart from the people, of course (and isn't it our duty as fellow Europeans to help them in that respect anyway?), the development of Eastern Europe has benefited Western companies enormously. Tesco's recent success, for example, has largely come through opening stores in Poland and the Czech Republic, which has led to its taking on staff at its headquarters here, and enabled it to continue opening UK stores employing mostly British people. And it's well known that many companies have expanded in the last five years precisely because of the availability and success of migrant labour, employing people who pay more in tax (to fund our ever-increasing pool of cruise-going, costas-living old people) than they take out of the system. Then there's the general benefits to an enlightened global society from increased integration and the mobility that goes with it.

I could go on... but I won't. I will, however, point out that Ukraine is not in the EU, and as such its citizens have no right to live and work here. In fact they need a visa even to come here on holiday.

i have to disagree with your point of them coming here to better themselves career wise!! why then tell me do 100s of migrants who are qualified as nurses, some even doctors, come here and work in care homes as carers?? i actually train them in thier NVQ so i do know of many many in this category.

thank you for ponting out that ukraine isnt in the EU, then it should be that visas are suspended for anyone new applying while we have this financial crisis and job loss. and why are employers activley encouraged to employ people from these countrys?

as i have said before i have nothing against foreign people, the ones i meet any that is many are really lovely people, but as has been said before charity begins at home.

piggeh

harrup wrote: »

Any wrote: »

One would think, wouldn't one. Alas, no.

In our PC crazy world, an employer hasn't got as much discrection in who to employ as could be assumed.

Examples:

A friend of mine is a manager for cabin crew. He chose one applicant over another - actually over many, many others - and the airline was sued ( and lost) for racial discrimination. Why? Because he offered the vacancy to a caucasion applicant over a black one. He was totally devastated as the applicant's ethnic origin had never entered the equasion. Instead, the thwarted applicant had 3 young children, was single ( divorced) ...und unsociable, constantly changing flying hours don't mesh well with family commitments. Which is why he gave the job to someone who he felt would be more reliable. But the airline backed down as they feared negative publicity.

Another pal of mine was determined to join the probation office. She had applied several times and was repeatedly rejected. Whilst she has a British passport she originates from Russia. She threatened to take them to court for "cultural discrimination"....and hey, presto - her application was successful. Regardless of the fact that there were 200 + applications for that training vacancy. She knows that it had nothing to do with cultural discrimination, they know that wasn't the reason, either. But hey-ho ....she got what she wanted.

My personal favourite: A local multi GP surgery skated on VERY thin ice when trying to re-negotiate a Spanish GP's employment. Lovely, sunny fellow....but his English was so broken, so rudimentary, that it was impossible to make head or tail of what he said. Or whether he was able to understand the nature of the helath problem described by the patient. Hugely entertaining if one didn't really need sound medical advice. Patients complained to the surgery. He supposedly threatened to sue. He staid put ( for a while). Personally, I wouldn't take my dog to a vet who couldn't speak proper English or who I wasn't certain could understand what I conveyed to him. But worried parents had to make do with for their babies.

Summary: People can't employ only who they want. Nor can they can't fire who they don't want. There are few people in this country who couldn't successfully claim they have been "discriminated against" in one way or another when they don't get what they want. Be that in either getting a job or keeping a job. For either being too young, too old, overqualified, learning disabled, wrong gender, wrong race, wrong nationality, wrong sexual orientation, wrong health status, wrong ...something. All grounds for a lovely "no win- no fee" court case. No fee for the huffy claimant, that is. Major headache and expense for the company, of course. Yes, I AM exaggerating the situation....but you get the general picture.

And THAT headache is often hotly followed by delicious strikes. Employees strike for all manner of reasons. Frequently for getting paid as much as what they accepted when they applied for the job. A sum suddenly deemed wholly insufficient and exploitative once they have it. That is if their job doesn't lead to "stessful exhaustion" first and they are off sunning themselves for a month in their back garden. Quirky.

Why do you think so many of the big UK companies relocated to India and the Far East??? They simply don't get that kind of hassle over there. Contrary to popular belief it truly wasn't just to save on labour costs.

We made our politically correct bed.....and now we collectively have to lie in it. Whilst haplessly standing by and watching other countries nabbing much needed UK jobs. Galling. Who said that being the poster child for advanced PC "enlightenment" didn't have a steep price tag? We truly are the "enlightened" ones. Jobless - or job insecure - but enlightened. Brillo. Result!

India, China, wherever, allowing any old working practise as acceptable, should not mean we do the same. Until people rid themselves of prejudice in this country then I'd rather there's an occassional injustice as a result, then let the racist, sexist, xenophobic views of some of this country's population take hold instead.

Also, generally, I think the courts are very fair in their judgement of cases, all the ones above are not easily summarised in the space of paragraph without no doubt omitting some pretty key points that the judges had to consider.

EagerLearner

This argument would fall flat on it's face if every country only hired it's own nationality rather than choosing based on skill and price.

All the ex pat Brits living it up in the Spanish Costas, France, Italy etc running their own businesses in the sun would be forced back home as all Italians / French etc started to choose their own nationals for the jobs that need doing.

Sadly for our nation the Brits as a whole don't speak foreign languages so limited numbers are able to go abroad (and the ones that do tend to work for/with Brits), so Europeans do have that 2nd language as an added skill and can indeed come over here and work, as per EU legislation. This permits anyone to work within the EU area, and many Brits take this option up too (this is mysteriously mentioned little in most of the media at the moment).

The Europeans can sometimes offer lower prices and often get the contracts, not always through better quality work but willingness to do the jobs. If this were not the case, they would not be getting contracts at all? Plus they are prepared to live and work abroad away from family and friends for long stretches at a time, or, they have moved here completely and are contributing to the economy. If every 'foreigner' left the UK today, the economy would be even worse (if that's possible) than it already is...

It's a hot issue I know - who carries the blame - the foreign workers for choosing to work here & at a lower price, or the UK based companies that choose to hire them instead of British workers? Or the British workers that refuse to do some kinds of work, or refuse to match Polish prices etc...

harrup

dinoyoung wrote: »

British workers have the dedication to work the longest hours in europe. .

Please send THOSE down to Devon ASAhumanlyP!!

The ones we have here currently want to come in late and leave early...IF they show up in the first place ( can't entirely blame them - I rather fancy doing such myself. Who wants to work when one could watch Big Brother live instead! Boooooooring )


Dedication to work the longest hours..... you are a riot.
:rotfl:

EagerLearner

louiser123 wrote: »

i have to disagree with your point of them coming here to better themselves career wise!! why then tell me do 100s of migrants who are qualified as nurses, some even doctors, come here and work in care homes as carers?? i actually train them in thier NVQ so i do know of many many in this category.

thank you for ponting out that ukraine isnt in the EU, then it should be that visas are suspended for anyone new applying while we have this financial crisis and job loss. and why are employers activley encouraged to employ people from these countrys?

as i have said before i have nothing against foreign people, the ones i meet any that is many are really lovely people, but as has been said before charity begins at home.

They come here to improve their earnings and start a better life for themselves and their family. They hope that maybe starting as a carer (if they have to, could be due to discrimination from the employer) they will eventually be recognised for their skills and be able to move up.

Also, it's sadly the case that often they have higher levels of education and literacy than those here, so they may be chosen over a British person for that or other reasons. Re-skilling and re-training British workers where needed may well have to be part of Gordon's agenda in the coming months/years to compete with skilled labour from abroad

louiser123

EagerLearner wrote: »

This argument would fall flat on it's face if every country only hired it's own nationality rather than choosing based on skill and price.

All the ex pat Brits living it up in the Spanish Costas, France, Italy etc running their own businesses in the sun would be forced back home as all Italians / French etc started to choose their own nationals for the jobs that need doing.

Sadly for our nation the Brits as a whole don't speak foreign languages so limited numbers are able to go abroad (and the ones that do tend to work for/with Brits), so Europeans do have that 2nd language as an added skill and can indeed come over here and work, as per EU legislation. This permits anyone to work within the EU area, and many Brits take this option up too (this is mysteriously mentioned little in most of the media at the moment).

The Europeans can sometimes offer lower prices and often get the contracts, not always through better quality work but willingness to do the jobs. If this were not the case, they would not be getting contracts at all? Plus they are prepared to live and work abroad away from family and friends for long stretches at a time, or, they have moved here completely and are contributing to the economy. If every 'foreigner' left the UK today, the economy would be even worse (if that's possible) than it already is...

It's a hot issue I know - who carries the blame - the foreign workers for choosing to work here & at a lower price, or the UK based companies that choose to hire them instead of British workers? Or the British workers that refuse to do some kinds of work, or refuse to match Polish prices etc...

sadly many of the workers you mention who can speak english is actually not true, as i have said i train many foreign workers in care and the truth is that they have a difficult time communicating with the clients.
i have on occasion had to use an interpreter to even do the training.

i quite frankly would be appauled if i had an elderley or sick relative who had a carer who could not communicate with them, where is the quality of care, and duty of care to the clients in this case??? which incidently this government is actually paying for!!