Taking legal action against Amway or IBS

MickKnipfler

I was just wondering what IBS are telling people. Surely Gerry & Pat aren't saying "it's all falling apart"?

djbd1973

MickKnipfler wrote: »

I was just wondering what IBS are telling people. Surely Gerry & Pat aren't saying "it's all falling apart"?

I only have one remaining link with this chapter of my life and its not very often that it comes up in conversation but I am sure Jerry and Pat are remaining upbeat and keeping the positive outlook as you would expect if it their income because anything other than a positive attitude is only going to further damage their businesses.

These sorts of details are considered on a need to know basis and if it isn't going to help growth then there is no need to know as it removes one's focus. If I find out anymore information I will let you know but I am not making a call just to find out so it may be some time coming.

markmcgimpsey

First of all, I joined Amway in 1986, and I'm not afraid to tell it as it is.

I am still a member though have not actively been involved with operating
the business for over 10 years.

It is not Amway's fault, thought I do feel they should have investigated
and monitored the activities of their distributors more thoroughly, and
therefore in my opinion must accept some of the blame.

In all businesses certain tools are needed to train people to enable them
to achieve better results.

It was made quite clear when I joined that as a distributor it was my own
business, and participation in purchasing training tools was not a part of
the Amway opportunity. The training tools, seminars, and rallies were supplied by the distributors network to provide information to people who
had never tried sales, or selling, or recruiting before.

Like many others, I did get caught up in the program of books, tapes, and
rallies, and like many others I did lose money. However I bought these tools willingly, and bought more than I really needed. It was my decision.

Amway (the Company) were not involved. In fact I remember several written warnings over the years issued by the Company in the Amagrams, warning people about committing heavily to training systems which were not authorised by them.

What simply happened is that a lot of the distributors who were earning money realised that their time and money invested in personally hiring hotel rooms etc, could be quickly recovered by promoting recordings of the information from these venues and selling it.

In certain ways this is not dis-similar to current internet marketing trends of audio and visual infoproducts. Amway (the Company) always maintained that the business was sell the products and show the plan (recruit to your network). It was the distributor organisations who became greedy and overpromoted the training materials seeing it as a way to sometimes equal
the monthly income from distributing the Company's products.

Do I regret it? No, well I regret being liberal with my wallet when I couldn't
really afford it and buying those materials from the distributor organisation.

Did I enjoy the seminars and rallies? Yes. Did I learn from them? Yes.

What was my opinion of the major functions? I understood they were a combination of training and entertainment over a weekend. I understood that there were costs involved to run the venue which were reflected in the ticket price. I understood that the distributor organisation had to pay in advance for many of the facilities.

Why did I become inactive? I learnt to treat the opportunity as a business, and when it became apparent that the majority of people want something for nothing, and it was going to take a long, long time, to build a solid organisation, I called 'time'. That is the true nature of network marketing. You must rely on the effort of others, and that is something you have no control over.

My own opinion is that I don't think Amway have a case to answer. I do think that regulation is needed to put the onus of 'investigation' into fraudulent practice firmly on any distributor, or distributors who intentionally or recklessly financially abuse their personally recruited members.

How that would be proved, or measured would be quite a challenge.

As I said, I participated of my own free will, fully aware they were not
part of the opportunity provided by the Company, just as I continually buy a lottery tickey and plough money into the lottery fully aware I may never ever win.

djbd1973

markmcgimpsey wrote: »

Like many others, I did get caught up in the program of books, tapes, and
rallies, and like many others I did lose money. However I bought these tools willingly, and bought more than I really needed. It was my decision.

One of the problems with the system of tools that was offered was the way that you HAD to listen to more than one tape a day etc otherwise the message was that you weren't taking it seriously.

It was never my decision to make. I was told that this is what I had to do to achieve. There was no discussion about it. At the beginning when I said I couldn't afford to go to a weekend function in Birmingham, my upline visited me, sat in my Dads dining room with me, with a ticket, and basically sold it to me until I gave him a cheque there and then. The strong persuasion that was used caused a lot of people including myself to lose a lot of money that I could have done with at the time, but they would say that if you missed one function you had a cold, miss two and you had the flu, and miss three and you are dead. In other words you would probably quit.

Some of the books I bought during my seven years as an active IBO I still read occasionally, but to succeed, did people really have to be on the book of the month plus one programme?

The other 'challenge' was the slogan used reguarly that 'winners never quit, and quitters never win'. I had realised towards the end that it wasn't for me. I gave it my best, but I clearly could not hold a group together long enough for people to stick, but I had seen how other people had been shunned for leaving and it was a worry, and it was these elements that weren't professional enough for me to warrant it as a 'business'.

I agree that the case against Amway itself can only be looked at through the enforcement of Amways rules on distributors making money on the 'system'. But there is a lot of damage out there because of the system especially throughout the last decade.

TPAOY

Just had a look back at this thread and it looks like it may have achieved a result even if not in my pocket.

Has anyone managed to find out if IBS still exist - looks ominous if the website has gone alond with Jerry and Mandys.

Pity that Jerry and Mandy and Pat and Greta managed to syphon off so much cash and use it elsewhere. Can't remember the name of Pat's property rental company, but if they were so sure of IBS, then why did they need other outlets?

Still suffering the after effects (completely shot credit rating due to the debt incurred "chasing the dream"), but much happier now that we are away from the scam.

djbd1973

TPAOY wrote: »

Has anyone managed to find out if IBS still exist - looks ominous if the website has gone alond with Jerry and Mandys.

I am sure that IBS would still be alive in some form while it waits the outcome of the investigation. I am due to meet up with another ex-distributor in two weeks time while we crossline over a coffee . I will probably find out a bit more then as he has a nack of finding things out.

Chuh

The end is nigh :j

IBS is owned by the Scrivens and Gregorys but because of the disproportionate profits associated with this and other Amway related training systems, the DTI has launched their investigation. Funnily enough because of the way IBS was set up the DTI are unable to touch them, however, Amway has put in place a stop on all training activity whilst the investigation is under way. All websites have been taken down (hence the comments about being unable to find them), meetings and seminars canceled, training material sales stopped.

Amway have canceled the contracts of the Scrivens and Gregorys, so although it's difficult to know exactly why, they are no longer involved in the Amway business.

Stopping the IBS business has had a significant impact on their income stream so the 'leaders' who are now searching for alternative MLM systems they can plug their many loyal downline into. They have teamed up with Success University and an online gaming 'opportunity' - the 1st of many more. They've spent the past few weeks promoting this 'fantastic new opportunity' and trying to get all their downline to sign up.

I was invited to attend a meeting yesterday to find out what is happening. I was disappointed but not surprised to find that everyone was being charged £10 at the door. There were at least 500 attendees in a hall that cost £500 to hire at most. This is the second meeting in 3 weeks, and there are a series of 10 more meetings planned during October to recruit more searchers - cer-ching!

I was told on numerous occasions that the 'con-ed' (continuous education) program made just enough money to cover the cost of the materials and administration only. I know from personal experience that this is untrue.

It's sad but true that although it's painfully obvious that downline are convenient cash cows people will continue to follow unquestioningly.

djbd1973

Chuh wrote: »

The end is nigh :j

IBS is owned by the Scrivens and Gregorys but because of the disproportionate profits associated with this and other Amway related training systems, the DTI has launched their investigation. Funnily enough because of the way IBS was set up the DTI are unable to touch them, however, Amway has put in place a stop on all training activity whilst the investigation is under way. All websites have been taken down (hence the comments about being unable to find them), meetings and seminars canceled, training material sales stopped.

Amway have canceled the contracts of the Scrivens and Gregorys, so although it's difficult to know exactly why, they are no longer involved in the Amway business.

Stopping the IBS business has had a significant impact on their income stream so the 'leaders' who are now searching for alternative MLM systems they can plug their many loyal downline into. They have teamed up with Success University and an online gaming 'opportunity' - the 1st of many more. They've spent the past few weeks promoting this 'fantastic new opportunity' and trying to get all their downline to sign up.

I was invited to attend a meeting yesterday to find out what is happening. I was disappointed but not surprised to find that everyone was being charged £10 at the door. There were at least 500 attendees in a hall that cost £500 to hire at most. This is the second meeting in 3 weeks, and there are a series of 10 more meetings planned during October to recruit more searchers - cer-ching!

I was told on numerous occasions that the 'con-ed' (continuous education) program made just enough money to cover the cost of the materials and administration only. I know from personal experience that this is untrue.

It's sad but true that although it's painfully obvious that downline are convenient cash cows people will continue to follow unquestioningly.

This is very sad. Thanks for the post Chun. The cash cows view the Scrivens as some sort of gods who can do no harm.

You think its over and something like this happens. Very very sad.

PasturesNew

If you had taken music lessons costing as much, would you be suing them because you hadn't had a number 1 hit yet?

The amount of £20k seems a lot, I presume this is the cost of the training plus your other costs in trying to build your business, although I have no knowledge or experience of this.

But, without knowing what I am talking about, I don't see the problem. They sold training that if applied had the potential to make you a lot of money. To build a business. A business opportunity. So I don't see that you would have any claim.

You've said a lot of thier info was good.

They might have a statistic that shows that not many people succeed, but how many people succeed in other businesses? Business is a risk. What works for one person doesn't work for another. Or the same person in two different locations could do well in one and crash/burn in the other.

Business is a risk - and business needs to be measured. You need to be working out continually what is working and what is not. Then building on those activities that are working for you.

£20,000 is a lot to spend before you find out you're not making money. Then you want to sue?

Sorry to be not so huggy huggy as others, but that's just the way I see it.

djbd1973

PasturesNew wrote: »

If you had taken music lessons costing as much, would you be suing them because you hadn't had a number 1 hit yet?

The amount of £20k seems a lot, I presume this is the cost of the training plus your other costs in trying to build your business, although I have no knowledge or experience of this.

But, without knowing what I am talking about, I don't see the problem. They sold training that if applied had the potential to make you a lot of money. To build a business. A business opportunity. So I don't see that you would have any claim.

You've said a lot of thier info was good.

They might have a statistic that shows that not many people succeed, but how many people succeed in other businesses? Business is a risk. What works for one person doesn't work for another. Or the same person in two different locations could do well in one and crash/burn in the other.

Business is a risk - and business needs to be measured. You need to be working out continually what is working and what is not. Then building on those activities that are working for you.

£20,000 is a lot to spend before you find out you're not making money. Then you want to sue?

Sorry to be not so huggy huggy as others, but that's just the way I see it.

I agree PasturesNew - the problem was how you were told, not advised, on how to run your business, and yes, making those sorts of losses were questioned at the beginning but those involved were constantly being told that this was part of it... you will succeed etc. They didn't want you to quit because this would cost them income regardless of if you were making bad losses that did not make sense.

Its hard to explain to someone who had not been involved, and I am about to go out the door so can't go into lengthy explanations but you couldn't reinvent your own methods. The element of control that was forced on individuals from above was dictorial to say the least.

I've gotta run, but I'll be back. Maybe someone else will pick up on this and explain better than me but I can see where you are coming from PasturesNew, but when I was involved with this I would have thought you were mad. That is the sad part.