NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

sickasaparrot

Civil servants slammed over PMS rescue "rejection"

NIO has been accused of pre-empting the Prime Minister and an official investigation regarding a rescue package for PMS. Jim Allister TUV and Danny Kennedy UUP hit out at letters received by savers from NIO civil servants pouring cold water on the possibility of Govt. help.

Jim Allister said " If the NIO have nothing to do with the official investigation, why are they interfering in the political processes when the politicians have not taken a view yet? Are they pre-empting a meeting between Prime Minister and First and Deputy First minister?"

Danny Kennedy said that the Sec. of State, as representative of Govt. in this part of the UK, should be putting forward the case for Govt. guarantees of the PMS in a more forceful and public manner, especially at cabinet level. He was concerned at the "apparently unenthusiastic attitude" of the Sec. of State and demanded Mr Woodward clarify his stance immediately.

Responding, an NIO representative said " in terms of Sec. of State's involvement in PMS issue, he had raised it with the PM and Treasury several times. He has also discussed the position PMS finds itself in with NI ministers as it is a devolved matter responsibility falls to DETI, whose legislation provides for Indust. and Prov. Socities such as PMS". DETI reiterated that under current legislation it was not responsible for regulating PMS but merely the registration in 1982.

fivealive_2

pensiongone wrote: »

[FONT=&quot]MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN![/FONT]

Ah yes
The famous "writing on the wall" quote

Well the writing is certainly on the wall now for the PCI

But will they heed it?

Will they react?

There certainly seems to be an air of despondancy about; I hope and pray that PCI/Church House get their act together in time for General Assembly as I think that it could be a case of "make or break" for many people.

CYNIC_3

Below is the exact quote from my posting in January this year -

CYNIC wrote: »

I have followed this thread from day one but refrained from posting as I am not personally involved.

However I am extremely cynical about the wealthiest organisations on this planet - Churches.

I watched with disgust the interview on TV back in November when a representative from the Church squirmed, twisted wriggled and played with words to distance his organisation from the PMS.

Had he been a politician I would have expected no less - but this is a "Godly" man, and to watch it made my stomach turn.

The reason I have chosen to post at this time again stems from my cynicism.

The Church has asked all its ministers to make announcements at services toady and explain to people how to sign the petition etc.

My question - Did this happen in your church toady ?

Was sufficient time spent on the subject to allow the elderly people who have no access to sites like this understand what is happening.

I hope I am wrong for the sake of those elderly people who trusted in their church - but I doubt it !

Let us all know what happened in your church today

At the time I posted this there were many many postings every day on this forum regarding the PMS/PCI - how many are there today ?

I feel terribly sorry for the savers in this mess but with politicians in their own feeding trough and the Church hiding behind its Alters - mark my words - you have been Royally ****** !

Back to my quote -

My question - Did this happen in your church toady ?

Was sufficient time spent on the subject to allow the elderly people who have no access to sites like this understand what is happening.

Your church is hoping you will just go quietly - or am I wrong. Are the churches every week still passing their trays around, collecting in even more money when the elderly congregation are sitting in despair without the money to pay their bills. Has your minister suggested that the collection money be made available to those that have lost hope ( and a lifetime of savings ). I would doubt it.

I am not belittling any action you have all taken, writing letters etc - but you are wasting your time ( IMO ).

Your only hope now is to shane your Church into helping you.

Why are you not handing out leaflets in your Church to fellow worshippers asking that every one of them demands that their minister openly deals with this issue and supports you vocally in Church House.

Shame on the PCI - your only hope is if you shame them into action.

If you dont - you will not see your money.

purt

CYNIC wrote: »

Shame on the PCI - your only hope is if you shame them into action.

If you dont - you will not see your money.

Well said

BETRAYED

My ancestors came to Ireland as Scottish Presbyterians in the mid 17th. century. Since then matters of faith and doctrine raised controversy and division in the Church.
Since the General Assembly was set up in 1840 I believe the Church played its due role in missionary and pastoral work.
The Church and its governing body should now be made aware of the dilemma it faces in regard to the PMS.
It set up the Society in 1983 and though PMS is a legal entity in itself it is without doubt associated with the Church as evidence posted on this forum clearly shows.
I imagined that the PMS board, made up of ministers, accountants, solicitors and others were competent to operate within the legislation which governed their activities.
The present 'mess' was I believe brought about by the Credit Crunch before which the Society become a 'risk 'because of its own success. Large deposits led the society to make more loans and invest in property when house building and property development was booming.
DETNI through Arlene Foster's bill in the NI Assembly prevented the Society being made bankrupt.
A research paper by Aidan Stennitt on Credit Unions and Mutual Societies was prepared for the N I Assembly in September 2007. This pointed out the shortcomings of the legislation in N Ireland compared to England, Wales and the Republic of Ireland.
It is posted on the internet as an Assembly Research Paper.

The Administrator acting for the Court is now in charge.
We do not know all the facts but I believe that the best solution was for the PMS shareholders to be allowed to have an opportunity to permit the Society to continue in some form or other. There is still substantial income from loans and rents and some of us would be happy to remain investors. Shareholders could empower the repayment of limited funds.
Meanwhile NI Assembly could legislate for PMS and like societies.
Not so.....
I hear the Administrator has asked borrowers to pay back loans and I know some churches have.
Hierarchy of the PCI seem to be avoiding the matter. Moderator has refused to meet groups of investors.
My own minister does not want to talk about it.
I am involved with a senior citizens' group and some who are shareholders are in dire need of funds to buy food and heating oil.
I for one shall be attending the opening of the General Assembly and the debates relating to the PMS.
Wording for placards has already been decided.

Dr._Who_2

Assembly reports 2009 under Board of Mission in Ireland I found the following paragraph concerning the Shankill Road Mission:-
22. "The Mission itself faces a crisis due to the events unfolding in the Presbyterian Mutual Society. Substantial investment funds are held with the Society, and the Mission depends on interest received for on-going revenue expenditure. Unless there is a satisfactory solution to the current situation the future for the Mission is bleak"

Have also heard of the possibility of one of the Churches in Londonderry, which was already struggling, closing because much of its money is tied up in PMS!!

People are worried, many are already suffering, some of the work of PCI will suffer - but it seems to be "business as usual" at the General Assembly - will someone come up with a rescue package for the Shankill road Mission? If so it should be a rescue package for ALL!!

crazymess

In the event of lack of Government help:

The General Assembly need to apply to Government or whoever to seek to get a loan, secured on all of their properties, for the next however many years and fix the deficit. We are aware that this figure is not readily available - but I think everyone has a rough idea.

Then come and tell the 10,000 presbyterian mutual society savers that they are going to resolve this situtation in time.

The General Assembly unanimously agreed for us to save in the PMS in 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987 ................. and hopefully they will unanimously agree to help us out of this in 2009 and do the honourable thing.

IT'S IN THE CHURCH'S INTEREST AND YOURS!

Action_Now

As a Presbyterian Mutual Society investor I have been closely watching the ongoing fiasco over the PMS with much interest. When the Society was placed into administration in November 2008 investors were rightly very concerned and worried about what was going to happen next. Many people I know, are also distraught at the thought of losing their savings which were invested in good faith. So what did we do? We turned to our Church which we thought we knew very well: a Church that would stand by us; a Church that would use its considerable influence to help us find a solution to this dreadful scenario; a Church that would petition our MLAs, MPs, Treasury Committees, First Ministers, Prime Minister, Chancellor and the media and persuade them to fight for us. I am sorry to say that, as of yet, the Presbyterian Church has let us down.

The initial response, from the Clerk of the General Assembly, Rev Dr Donald Watts, in his statement on 12th Nov 08, was to outline that,"it is easy to point out that the mutual society is a separate legal entity which is quite separate from the church.” However, the 2008 edition of “The Book of The Constitution and Government of The Presbyterian Church in Ireland”,states, on page 98 point 280.1, the members of the “Board of Mission in Ireland” and on the list is “the Presbyterian Mutual Society Agent”. Contrary to Dr Watts’ statement this is conclusive evidence of the inextricable link between PCI and the PMS. The total hypocrisy displayed by the Church is breathtaking.

So the Church thatwe have supported for many years with our time and our finances (finances which at the end of the day pay the ministers a salary, expenses and a good pension) basically says it has nothing to do with the PMS. All the church has offered is “pastoral care”, which is needed, but is nowhere near enough. Dr. Patton sent letters to the Prime Minister asking for “sympathetic attention” and a petition was circulated for each congregation to sign. Dr Patton took the petition to Westminster during the G20 summit, which completely overshadowed his visit and handed it over to our own NI Assembly MPs. The simple fact is the lack of interest and enthusiasm our Church has shown to us as members is disgraceful. The Church has made no other effort to help find a resolution to the awful situation 9.500 Presbyterians and their families are in. What they have done should have been done before Christmas not six months later; we should be much further forward with regards to a rescue plan than the position we are currently in.

It is now time that PMS investors took matters into their own hands. We can see that the Church still has little interest in us and the Government is dragging its heels. Gordon Brown is waiting until a long review of policy regarding Industrial and Provident Societies is carried out. We simply cannot afford to wait any longer. There are 9.500 members of the PMS, plus their families and many more Presbyterians who are disillusioned and angry with the Church effectively washing their hands of PMS investors. Imagine if we could fill Church House with people, young and old, attending the meeting of the General Assembly on Tuesday 2nd June. It would send a very clear message to our new Moderator and General Assembly that we, Church members, will no longer tolerate the lack of support for PMS investors. This is our opportunity to force the Church to join us and lobby Westminster for the same assistance as the individual investors in the Icelandic Banks and Dunfermline Building Society received. We have seen what can be achieved if we all make a concerted effort like the Visteon workers in West Belfast. We must act now!!

The Administrator has bought us time to act. As the Government and PCI are fully aware, any rescue plan is too late once the arrangements have been agreed for an orderly winding down and a small percentage of our investments have been returned.

Let us take a stand now before it is too late. Let us make our voices heard at the General Assembly on 2nd June.

fivealive_2

Action_Now wrote: »

As a Presbyterian Mutual Society investor I have been closely watching the ongoing fiasco over the PMS with much interest. When the Society was placed into administration in November 2008 investors were rightly very concerned and worried about what was going to happen next. Many people I know, are also distraught at the thought of losing their savings which were invested in good faith. So what did we do? We turned to our Church which we thought we knew very well: a Church that would stand by us; a Church that would use its considerable influence to help us find a solution to this dreadful scenario; a Church that would petition our MLAs, MPs, Treasury Committees, First Ministers, Prime Minister, Chancellor and the media and persuade them to fight for us. I am sorry to say that, as of yet, the Presbyterian Church has let us down.

The initial response, from the Clerk of the General Assembly, Rev Dr Donald Watts, in his statement on 12th Nov 08, was to outline that,"it is easy to point out that the mutual society is a separate legal entity which is quite separate from the church.” However, the 2008 edition of “The Book of The Constitution and Government of The Presbyterian Church in Ireland”,states, on page 98 point 280.1, the members of the “Board of Mission in Ireland” and on the list is “the Presbyterian Mutual Society Agent”. Contrary to Dr Watts’ statement this is conclusive evidence of the inextricable link between PCI and the PMS. The total hypocrisy displayed by the Church is breathtaking.

So the Church thatwe have supported for many years with our time and our finances (finances which at the end of the day pay the ministers a salary, expenses and a good pension) basically says it has nothing to do with the PMS. All the church has offered is “pastoral care”, which is needed, but is nowhere near enough. Dr. Patton sent letters to the Prime Minister asking for “sympathetic attention” and a petition was circulated for each congregation to sign. Dr Patton took the petition to Westminster during the G20 summit, which completely overshadowed his visit and handed it over to our own NI Assembly MPs. The simple fact is the lack of interest and enthusiasm our Church has shown to us as members is disgraceful. The Church has made no other effort to help find a resolution to the awful situation 9.500 Presbyterians and their families are in. What they have done should have been done before Christmas not six months later; we should be much further forward with regards to a rescue plan than the position we are currently in.

It is now time that PMS investors took matters into their own hands. We can see that the Church still has little interest in us and the Government is dragging its heels. Gordon Brown is waiting until a long review of policy regarding Industrial and Provident Societies is carried out. We simply cannot afford to wait any longer. There are 9.500 members of the PMS, plus their families and many more Presbyterians who are disillusioned and angry with the Church effectively washing their hands of PMS investors. Imagine if we could fill Church House with people, young and old, attending the meeting of the General Assembly on Tuesday 2nd June. It would send a very clear message to our new Moderator and General Assembly that we, Church members, will no longer tolerate the lack of support for PMS investors. This is our opportunity to force the Church to join us and lobby Westminster for the same assistance as the individual investors in the Icelandic Banks and Dunfermline Building Society received. We have seen what can be achieved if we all make a concerted effort like the Visteon workers in West Belfast. We must act now!!

The Administrator has bought us time to act. As the Government and PCI are fully aware, any rescue plan is too late once the arrangements have been agreed for an orderly winding down and a small percentage of our investments have been returned.

Let us take a stand now before it is too late. Let us make our voices heard at the General Assembly on 2nd June.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Matthew 11:15

goodbyepci

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2009-05-18a.270.0

Lord Mawhinney (Conservative)
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many savers in England they estimate have lost part or all of their savings in the Presbyterian Mutual Society since it went into dministration.
To as Her Majesty's Government how many savers in Scotland they estimate have lost part or all of their savings in the Presbyterian Mutual Society since it went into administration.
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many savers in Wales they estimate have lost part or all of their savings in the Presbyterian Mutual Society since it went into administration.To ask Her Majesty's Governmet how many savers in Northern Ireland they estimate have lost part or all of their savings in the Presbyterian Mutual Society since it went into administration.


Lord Myners (Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury; Labour) | Hansard source The Presbyterian Mutual Society is currently in administration. The Government have made no estimate of the number of members of the society who may have lost part or all of their investment. The administrator website now states that his report is delayed, that he will be providing a statutory progress report on or before 16 June and he hopes to put a formal arrangement to the members in September



Why do they never answer the question?