NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

fivealive_2

KingVardas wrote: »

Dipping in again. Some recent posts v interesting. There's a link to a goverment answer in the Lords in which they said - "Organisations such as the PMS which are registered as industrial and provident societies (IPSs) are exempt from regulation by the Financial Services Authority (FSA) in respect of accepting deposits in the form of withdrawable share capital. Societies should make clear to members that their deposits are risk capital, held in the form of share capital that can be withdrawn. Under IPS legislation, any one member's shareholding is limited to £20,000. Being outside of FSA regulation, the PMS and its members do not contribute to, and are therefore not protected by, the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS)."
So, if your Society did not give you share certificates in return for your money, then they were definitely acting outside the rules.

Yes, King Vardas, we did get "share certificates" for amounts invested under £20,000 but we still did not realise they were shares!
A Building Society, I think it was the Nationwide, used to have an account called the "easy share account" which was just an ordinary account. Most if not all of those who invested in the PMS just thought the word "share" was a description of our account. The value of these "shares" never went up or down, as Ivor mcCandless stated; you put a pound in and you got a pound out + interest. There was no small print to suggest we were buying shares or that there was any risk attached to our investment. We were all taken for a ride, it would appear. _pale_

brick

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8050239.stm

Elliot claims to have fallen foul of a "very loose and shambolic allowance system".

PMS savers, with considerably more justification, can claim to have fallen foul of a "very loose and shambolic regulatory system".

If only we could get a string of MPs to be honest, say so out loud, and fix it.
Oops, I forgot, they wouldn't stand to personally benefit from such a course of action.

Dr._Who_2

Sometimes I feel despondent about this whole disaster - I agree with an earlier post that it's a scandal on the name of our Church and on the Name of Christ, sadly!!
People with little interest in the Christian faith will feel justified, although we should NEVER look to any Church or any person for our example - but the perceptions people have of the church will influence how they think about the faith!! General Assembly 2008 BMI Report resolution 9 P.155 we "encouraged" people to invest in PMS - still can't get away from this. When you "encourage" someone to do something then there is a moral responsibility to do somethign when it all goes pear-shaped!! Don't think many investors realised the set up of PMS - I certainly didn't!! PMS literature should have displayed some kind of warning as you see elsewhere e.g. "regulated by the Financial Services Agency" etc.
I wonder when will we see our money and how much? I suppose we'll just have to do what we have been doing - wait!!
Perhaps someone could help us debate the moral and ethical arguement here.

freddiemae

Dr._Who wrote: »

Sometimes I feel despondent about this whole disaster - I agree with an earlier post that it's a scandal on the name of our Church and on the Name of Christ, sadly!!
People with little interest in the Christian faith will feel justified, although we should NEVER look to any Church or any person for our example - but the perceptions people have of the church will influence how they think about the faith!! General Assembly 2008 BMI Report resolution 9 P.155 we "encouraged" people to invest in PMS - still can't get away from this. When you "encourage" someone to do something then there is a moral responsibility to do somethign when it all goes pear-shaped!! Don't think many investors realised the set up of PMS - I certainly didn't!! PMS literature should have displayed some kind of warning as you see elsewhere e.g. "regulated by the Financial Services Agency" etc.
I wonder when will we see our money and how much? I suppose we'll just have to do what we have been doing - wait!!
Perhaps someone could help us debate the moral and ethical arguement here.

Without wishing to be patronising ----throughout this thread I have been reminded of the story of Jesus and the moneychangers in the Temple and in some ways that was a warning that the Church should avoid anything to do with moneylending or borrowing. The Church will now pay the price. Legacies that would have come its way will now have gone- members will struggle to pay their FWO when their savings have gone. What a bitter lesson to learn. I think that morally they should step up to the plate - as someone said sell off the glebes and any excess property they own to try and make up the short fall for the shareholders. You can't lead people to do something and then abandon them when they take your advice. Where is the Church as the shepherd?

KingVardas

fivealive wrote: »

Yes, King Vardas, we did get "share certificates" for amounts invested under £20,000 but we still did not realise they were shares!
A Building Society, I think it was the Nationwide, used to have an account called the "easy share account" which was just an ordinary account. Most if not all of those who invested in the PMS just thought the word "share" was a description of our account. The value of these "shares" never went up or down, as Ivor mcCandless stated; you put a pound in and you got a pound out + interest. There was no small print to suggest we were buying shares or that there was any risk attached to our investment. We were all taken for a ride, it would appear. _pale_

I checked the legislation. Your shares did not go "up or down" in value because the rules of Industrial and Provident Socities state that profits can't be distributed to members, only reinvested in the society, and shares can't be traded like ordinary shares, so there is no "market" to buy and sell them in. That's what differntiates IPSs from ordinary companies. You would have received, I assume, a dividend distribution on your shareholding each year - that's the way they are supposed to work.Hope that clarifies.

Dr._Who_2

THE ASSEMBLY REPORTS ARE OUT!! (Although not on website)
General Board section on PMS - re-hashing of what we already know. Nothing new - attached resolutions usual things, call to prayer etc etc but no suggestions of either moral accountability or practical action!!
Perhaps we'll get a few amendments during the debate - these will be printed in Daily Minutes as I explained before.
Amendments might be the point at which the moral issues will be raised!!

Quite disappointing, really!! Fear that everyone is going to walk away from this and leave PMS investors on their own.
If I had known there was risk attached to placing money with PMS it wouldn't have been there!! Like the majority of the people who invested in PMS I am not a financial risk taker:mad::eek:

no_more_f.w.o

Re the post above from Dr Who

[FONT=&quot]Well that’s it then. All hope of the church helping us out of this situation has gone if there is no mention of the essential practical action. All of those pensioners who still held out hope that the church they love and have upheld and supported for a lifetime would not let them down. Are now given the final kick in the teeth as Church House squirms its way through the situation with “resolutions” and “reports”. The dismissive cruelty of this beggars belief. The callousness of Church House is inexcusable and unpardonable. It is becoming obvious that the only way the church will help us, is if they are dragged kicking and screaming through the courts. How hard would it be for them to negotiate a bank loan, backed by their considerable assets to make up the shortfall and provide immediate relief. The financial reports reveal that the church could service a considerable loan.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Shame on you Presbyterian Church of Ireland[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In language which you will understand, I condemn you and the world condemns you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ichabod[/FONT][FONT=&quot] – [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the glory is departed[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Dan 5:25 And this [is] the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 5:26[/FONT][FONT=&quot]This [is] the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and finished it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 5:27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and art found wanting.[/FONT]

pensiongone

no_more_f.w.o wrote: »

Re the post above from Dr Who

[FONT=&quot]Well that’s it then. All hope of the church helping us out of this situation has gone if there is no mention of the essential practical action. All of those pensioners who still held out hope that the church they love and have upheld and supported for a lifetime would not let them down. Are now given the final kick in the teeth as Church House squirms its way through the situation with “resolutions” and “reports”. The dismissive cruelty of this beggars belief. The callousness of Church House is inexcusable and unpardonable. It is becoming obvious that the only way the church will help us, is if they are dragged kicking and screaming through the courts. How hard would it be for them to negotiate a bank loan, backed by their considerable assets to make up the shortfall and provide immediate relief. The financial reports reveal that the church could service a considerable loan.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Shame on you Presbyterian Church of Ireland[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In language which you will understand, I condemn you and the world condemns you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ichabod[/FONT][FONT=&quot] – [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the glory is departed[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Dan 5:25 And this [is] the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 5:26[/FONT][FONT=&quot]This [is] the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and finished it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 5:27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and art found wanting.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN![/FONT]

Ah yes
The famous "writing on the wall" quote

Well the writing is certainly on the wall now for the PCI

But will they heed it?

Will they react?

Dr._Who_2

I understand what others are saying about "reports" and "resolutions" - the Assembly can be tedious in extremis because of that.
The resolutions re PMS are resolutions submitted by the General Board which may be reflective of a general attitude/approach as others have rightly said: we will have to wait and see what amendments are submitted, and there may be a raft of those, as those could open up the discussion. These will be printed in Daily Minutes which, if previous practice is followed, can be viewed on PCI Website. Amendments are voted on first and if an amendment is passed it becomes the substantive motion and is put to the meeting - at that point it would be hard to see how it wouldn't be passed. It then takes the place of the General Board resolution and becomes the policy of PCI.
I would like to see the moral responsibility link established - that's the key to this. PCI & PMS are, legally, two seperate entities - but if the morality of PCI in "encouraging" people to invest in PMS were established that would open the door to a lot of things - that's what, I think, the Church House people fear. If a moral responsibility were established then integrity demands action, if you see what I mean. If an amendment were to come to that effect it would be an interesting debate if it weren't such a difficult issue for many of us.
Will let everyone know when stuff appears on PCI website and how to access it.

sickasaparrot

CHURCH SILENCE DEAFENING OVER PLIGHT OF SAVERS- synopsis

PCI have preached the family ethos. Savers feel isolated, anxious and abandoned. Savers are appalled at the lack of support from PCI. Many savers have invested their life savings with PMS from which individual churches have derived great benefit re church improvements. PCI have been very quick to distance themselves, claiming separate legal entities but in doing so has isolated itself from 10,000 members and their families.
Before savers money was accepted by PMS, savers had to specify which congregation they belonged to. PMS was congratulated by Assembly on its success and Assembly encouraged Presbyterians to save with society. Savers want to know NOW if PCI have the will to solve the plight of fellow Presbyterians. Up to now the silence has been deafening! Maybe they will give us some respect and answer this question at General Assembly on 2nd June.