Kaupthing Edge CHAPS Transfer

hellyboo_2

ahem... so modest!

fredhaben

dag wrote: »

However, the transactions that were scheduled for before the ING takeover either bounced or were never sent, but since they were deducted from the KE accounts anyway, the money is now in the hands of the KSF administrators.

If this were true, it should have happened to both BACS and CHAPS transfers. Both go to a holding account initially, and BACS transfers stay there longer than CHAPS transfers. But BACS transfers were paid out, this issue notwithstanding. Why should it continue to be a problem with CHAPS, and only CHAPS?

For the record, I believe you are right in saying that the holding account went to KSF's administrators. But they would have had to release the money in it, because all pending transfers held there would have been held in trust for us depositors - i.e., Kaupthing wouldn't have had full title to the money, so it couldn't have been used by the administrators. And this would have been an issue for all transfers, whether BACS or CHAPS.

catbaloo

hellyboo wrote: »

like me! still here. fingers crossed still

And me, still hoping for good news for you all tomorrow x;)

ontherun_2

dag wrote: »

I do hope no-one thinks this is an "I told you so" post, I really don't mean it to sound like that; it's just that my current (idle speculation) theory is that there has been more than one reason why the transactions have been held up.

My theory is that transactions that were scheduled for after the ING takeover were held up simply because there were loads and loads of them, and there was a backlog (and one of my own withdrawals is caught up in this too). However, the transactions that were scheduled for before the ING takeover either bounced or were never sent, but since they were deducted from the KE accounts anyway, the money is now in the hands of the KSF administrators.

You can't assume that it's a given number of people just because they think it's 5% of the transactions. Some of the people may have made more than one withdrawal. This means that if each person has attempted to make, on average, at least 20 separate withdrawals from their KSF accounts, then it's theoretically possible for that 5% of transactions to affect the entire Kaupthing Edge UK customer book. It's certainly possible that the affected 5% of the transactions may have been made by well over 5% of the customer base.

And the nature of the MoneySavingExpert forum being what it is, I suspect that we have a disproportionately large number of the people who have made those early transactions in this thread, when compared to the entire KE customer base. Course, I can't prove that, but it's a thought.

Anyway - keep in there folks, thanks for the posts. :A

Of course your theories are more than welcome Dag - Gives everyone something to mull over & pull some sort of sence out of. My veiw however, is that, ING should have come out with even the most simple explenation to eliminate fears, worries & confirm/refute some very explanative suggestions of whats going on

How difficult can it be to just say ... Hey, Welcome to ING our new, valued customers! As you know, there have been some problems concerning your hard earned life savings held in an Icelindic bank that we were paid £2.5bn to take custody of and instill confidence in you, our valued customer, that your hard earned cash is safe. However, we don't actually know where your money is at this time!.....Well, we do, but we just don't want to tell you!! We would rather patronise each & every one of you to the point of hysteria, where we hope you all join up to a very reputible & respictable website to discuss, flap and actually come up with a solution for us to work out for you all some day as this would be so much easier for everyone concerned!!

Thank you for your patience

Sincerely
ING

PS,

Apologies if the above offends anyone, Hic-Up! ;-)

Seriously though, a simple explenation of what.s goin on would be suffice I would imagine??

tmvc2007

Here we go - thanks for continuing to send the info:

£3,767,729 not arrived at linked accounts. 123 transfers (2 whose value I don't know) - 7 BACS and 116 CHAPS

15 banks as linked accounts

I posted on the fools forum yesterday to ask for info - someone kindly said I should get a life (must be in oblivion :rotfl: ) - said person,I would guess, is not wondering where their money is. Anyway, glad to see that the message got through to some.

Remember - PM or email [EMAIL="lovelife42@hotmail.co.uk"]lovelife42@hotmail.co.uk[/EMAIL] if you have details for me to add.

Chilledout50

'Dancingbear' - i get the point and - sorry. I will never use the word gloom again.

Just thought about what has been suggestd on this forum and looked back on the original ING statement 12/10 which at the time gave me assurance:

When Kaupthing Edge encountered difficulties last week withdrawals were not able to be completed. ING Direct will be honouring all withdrawals and will continue to work to clear the backlog as quickly as possible.
ING Direct has now started to make payments and is in the process of clearing the backlog of pending transactions in the system.

All withdrawals would include both CHAPS and BACS and would mean back to 5th Oct.

hometune

fredhaben wrote: »

Why should it continue to be a problem with CHAPS, and only CHAPS?

I think because the chaps are released by a human and the bacs by computer overnight. I suspect there are many transfer/ holding accounts and it's only the ones relating to chaps which havn't been traced/ released/ bounced back.

ontherun_2

tmvc2007 wrote: »

Here we go - thanks for continuing to send the info:

£3,767,729 not arrived at linked accounts. 123 transfers (2 whose value I don't know) - 7 BACS and 116 CHAPS

15 banks as linked accounts

I posted on the fools forum yesterday to ask for info - someone kindly said I should get a life (must be in oblivion :rotfl: ) - said person,I would guess, is not wondering where their money is. Anyway, glad to see that the message got through to some.

Remember - PM or email [EMAIL="lovelife42@hotmail.co.uk"]lovelife42@hotmail.co.uk[/EMAIL] if you have details for me to add.

Hey tmvs, your grammer/spelling is getting as bad as the dunce in the corner! (Me)

Must be drinking out of the same "glas" or maybe it's all the hard work and long hours your putting in for the benefit of the KE/ING - Where's our money - Family

Awww shucks!! It was edited befor I got my post up :-((

dag_2

If this were true, it should have happened to both BACS and CHAPS transfers. Both go to a holding account initially, and BACS transfers stay there longer than CHAPS transfers. But BACS transfers were paid out, this issue notwithstanding. Why should it continue to be a problem with CHAPS, and only CHAPS?

Thanks - but doesn't it depend when it started?

Clearly both BACS and CHAPS transactions were going through from Kaupthing Edge accounts just fine for several months, if not years (not sure how long Kaupthing Edge has been around). Problems didn't start happening until October 6th.

So can we definitively say that all BACS transfers from this time went through?

Since BACS withdrawals aren't intended to be same day withdrawals, it could be that the requests were queued up waiting to be processed, but not actually sent to APACS and posted to the accounts until the next day. I think we have to make a distinction between the date that the transaction was requested, and the date that the account statement says it was actually deducted from the account balance. With CHAPS transactions, it's almost always the same day, but with BACS transactions, it quite often isn't.

My point being that even if a BACS withdrawal was requested on October 6th, it could be that it wasn't processed until after ING Direct had taken over.

Anyway - it's all speculation. I'd hope that when ING Direct agreed to take on the liabilities, there would be some contingency planning to allow for the possibility that the account balances that were notified to them at the time weren't absolutely spot on, due to transactions which were posted but which hadn't cleared, or vice versa. What I sincerely hope doesn't happen is that ING Direct turn round and say "Sorry, but the balance that we took over was the amount that was left after that transaction was deducted, not before, so it's not our responsibility - and if you haven't received the money, you're going to have to chase the KSF administrators."

It seems that there has been a mini-run, and there have been transactions from after the takeover which were too much for ING to clear straight away. But I think they're not going to be able to nail down the transactions that went missing in the handover until after the backlog of transactions from after the takeover are cleared, and things have settled down a bit.

I'm still confident that we'll all get our money back eventually, but I'd ask people not to panic, because new transactions that get requested now might add to the backlog, delaying them from nailing down the ones that are still missing.

If there was no attempt made to fix the total of ING's liability for KE at the outset, then the amount of assets available to the KSF administrators to distribute to KSF's other creditors would depend on figuring out exactly how much is owed in relation to KE accounts - which, in turn, depends on ING Direct clearing the backlog. That would be good news for us, but bad news for the KSF business and government customers.

But if, on the other hand, the KE balance totals were assumed to be correct at the point of the ING takeover, then that could mean that those who requested transactions on October 6th and 7th could face more bureaucratic wranglings before they get their money back.

Of these two scenarios, I think the first is more likely. But I honestly have no idea! Still just speculating, but trying to be prepared for realistic outcomes. Maybe something completely different has happened that we haven't thought of yet.

I'd be very surprised indeed if we haven't all got our money within the next two weeks, and I reckon it'll probably be a lot sooner than that.

[/crystal ball]

zaphod_beeblebrox_2

Tomorrow there will be 10-20-30 pages of POSITIVE posts, and the NEGATIVE posters will hide, even though their money’s in the bank!!