OYSTERCARD - Transport For London Crooked Dealing

peterbaker

Those who recognise my name know that when I come here, it is to highlight poor customer service or worse.

In this case it is TFL's crooked Oystercard system again.

On 10/9 one of my Oystercards (Pay As You Go) stopped working - a £20 auto top up had failed because I had not updated my credit card details when the last card expired.

I decided to put the card aside to reclaim the remaining credit and the original £3 card fee when I had time because TFL's Underground stations are totally unable to deal with such routine matters - you have to call the so-called "Oystercard Helpline" (sic).

Instead I bought a new Oystercard.

I originally bought these Oystercards for when my wife and kids were in London. Adult Oystercards the lot of them (don't get me started on why two were not for kids). Two cards stopped working some time ago - if I remember rightly TFL gave me a refund for the credit on them a couple of years ago and if I took the actual cards to a station perhaps I'd get £3 each back.

Anyway, back to the main story. I had two cards left. One stopped working. I bought one to replace it.

When my wife was in London last week I gave her one card. I made a mistake - it was the one that had stopped working.

She made one journey on the DLR to Bank and when the barrier wouldn't respond she queried it at the Excess Fare window and they confiscated the card. They refused to give a receipt, merely a copy of the recent Usage Statement. They made a point of saying that they had been instructed to confiscate such cards and showed a bagfull they'd collected that day. They called the Oystercard Helpline (sic again) and related that those helpful (sic again) people said money was owed despite the Usage Statement showing £23.70 credit.

They insisted that we had to call TFL to sort it out.

I finally got around to it this morning and got a typical irk whose conscience extended as far as his monthly salary. He wanted me to know that he didn't make the rules, he just answered the phone at 08 in the morning. He also said £20 was TFL's (the failed top up). I said well it still has a further credit £3.70 on it, and TFL now has the card back so what do you need the £20 again for? "Terms and Conditions" he said. In fact he entioned Ts & Cs about three times.

The best he could offer was that I pay £20 immediately by Credit Card and they would send me a cheque for £23.70.

I reminded him that TFL owed me £6.70 (£3.70 credit plus £3 for the card). He said because I no longer had the card, the £3 was lost, and that the only way I would get the £3.70 was to pay £20 first and wait for £23.70 cheque.


I asked for the matter to be immediately escalated to a manager because I was sick of TFLs crooked accounting practices. Eventually he took my number and said I would get a call back.

I shan't hold my breath.

The whole Oystercard setup stinks - pretty much always has. The last time I complained loudly was about the £4 immediate advance penalty that is charged every ime you enter the system (just in case you forget to touch out, or the machine isn't working and doesn't register your touch out ...

Goodness knows how much money TFL are sitting on as a result of stopped and confiscated Oystercards and dodgy touch outs leading to £4 penalties. Someone at TFL needs a rocket up the arris - Boris are you noting this down? :mad:

maninthestreet

What do you expect from public servants in the Nu Labour Reich? You can't expect any common sense from them, it's not in their job specification.

moonrakerz

Every travel scheme introduced by "Red Ken" relies solely on the penalty charges built into the scheme to keep it running.That is why they are so complex and user unfriendly.
If everyone knew how to use the scheme (and it worked properly) they would all be insolvent by now.

Voyager2002

I have been using Oystercards for years for my occasional visits to London, and have never had any problems. But then, I realised that auto-top-up would not work for me since I did not visit often enough, and so I have avoided the kind of mess that happens when you give incorrect card details.

If you try to make payment with an invalid card, most systems are going to flag up your transaction as possibly fraudulent. If you then make a further error, attempting to use a card that you know does not work, surely you are asking for trouble. In an ideal world there would be a customer service system to clear up the mess resulting from this kind of mistake, but that is asking rather a lot.

In short, you have no justification for calling the TFL system "crooked". If you used it properly, it would serve you well.

omen666

I cannot see why they would take the card from you and for what reason. I also fail to see why your card is cancelled for a failed payment. Oyster cards do not expire and if a failed payment goes on it is not cancelled and can still be used. They only circumstances a card would be cancelled is if it was a monthly/annual card that is registered and lost stolen and you have canmcelled it. In these circs they will give you another card that you must pay for and they will set the expiry date as per your previous monthly/annual purchase

peterbaker

I see the bored spoiler brigade are out ...

Let me re-clarify:

The Oystercard system was crooked before I made the mistake of giving the card to my other half to use; the obstructive Oystercard system set the scene nicely for my mistake.

Evidently if we are to follow Voyager2002's ways of the world we are to maintain a pigeon hole at home for stopped Oystercards awaiting refunds and a separate pigeon hole for Oystercards not yet mucked up by TFL. And in our spare time we are to sit quietly studying all the ways possibly imaginable in which the TFL system can muck us up, and then memorise every nuance before we set out each morning so that we can avoid every conceivable problem, just like our friend Voyager :rolleyes:

Sadly I failed to imagine what Oystercard might do on 10th September. The Oystercard system stopped my card when it was still in credit. I should have realised of course, but not being Voyager, I hadn't picked up every ounce of nuance from my Ts&Cs agreed to years ago when I registered my credit card with TFL's Auto Top Up.

The Oystercard system then provided no way way for me to obtain a refund of the credit on my stopped card other than to make a speculative call to the Oystercard Helpline (sic).

At the point I learned of the STOP on the card, I was on my way to work. I was inconvenienced. I was becoming late. I had to buy another Oystercard at Canary Wharf station. Canary Wharf is a flagship station on the TFL system, yet it is still a station with no facility to move credit from a stopped Oystercard to a new card. The staff at Canary Wharf wish it was possible by now, but the bosses at TFL survive on Oyster advanced cashflows and are reluctant to make credits easy. They would rather whip their Bank station staff into seizing bagfulls of cards for no good reason and into speaking to customers as if it is their problem. They even encourage their staff in front of other customers to suggest that money is owed to TFL and that is the reason for a card being seized. It's like seizing a credit card at the bank I was told (except the credit is mine, I told them).

So, Voyager2002, that's why I have no compunction in labelling TFL as crooked. I have lived long enough to recognise crooked dealing.

Omen666, my experience evidently proves you wrong. I have not cancelled any card. All that happened was that the credit card linked to the Auto Top Up expired, and TFL in their wisdom decided to STOP the card. Please do not mislead MSE'ers with your guesses presented falsely as fact.

I am very annoyed with TFL. Their last word was an advice that they were keeping at least £3 of my money for no good reason (the original card deposit) and that they were furthermore not prepared to refund the other £3.70 unless I paid them another £20 first so they could in their own time write a cheque for £23.70.

I asked why the hell should I throw more good money after bad into their system and trust them to make it right?

I tried to log on to my account online to see what was going on. I got a message that following a system upgrade I needed to update my password. I followed their instructions and it seems that my security information has been corrupted because their system seems incapable now of recognising it.

Now don't get any ideas about identity theft or cloning please. My Oystercards have not been exposed to risk like that.

Basically the "system upgrade" requirement to reset password and inability to log on is just further evidence of the obstructions TFL toss in the customers way to separate and distance the customer from their unused credit. Further crookedness I say.


To add insult to injury, my trip on the DLR this morning (after I wrote the original post) turned out to be a complete fiasco:

Not many of you realise, I am sure, that a DLR train full to bursting can possibly be manually operated (moved out of a station) with the doors open, risking spillage of passengers onto the trackside.

I didn't either until I witnessed the risk materialise this morning after a complete system breakdown where the control room was directing the operators by radio messages to use emergency manual override switches to keep the system limping along in the rush hour. The driver realised his mistake in time before the first door past the end of the platform, but he just shut the doors and carried on immediately (without spending any time to check properly that no-one was in difficulty as a result of moving with doors open) and said nothing.

omen666

peterbaker wrote: »

The Oystercard system was crooked before I made the mistake of giving the card to my other half to use; the obstructive Oystercard system set the scene nicely for my mistake.

Any factual evidence that it was crooked? No I thought not.

peterbaker wrote: »

. I had to buy another Oystercard at Canary Wharf station. Canary Wharf is a flagship station on the TFL system, yet it is still a station with no facility to move credit from a stopped Oystercard to a new card.

Yes the credit can be reapplied to a new card

peterbaker wrote: »

Omen666, my experience evidently proves you wrong. I have not cancelled any card. All that happened was that the credit card linked to the Auto Top Up expired, and TFL in their wisdom decided to STOP the card. Please do not mislead MSE'ers with your guesses presented falsely as fact.

Your experience does not qualify you to claim it is crooked nor right in this instance. Me however, my guesses as you put it are attributed to working on LUL for more than 20 years installing the POMS, TOMS and Oyster card system I think that puts me in good stead with only a little experience compared to yours to make the bold statements above. No wonder they have done !!!! all to help someone like you!

peterbaker

Omen, I guessed you were an employee. You are seriously out of touch.

You are LUL. I am the customer. The Oystercard system is crooked exactly as I described. The £4 advanced penalty system was crooked the moment it was introduced - there were complaints on MSE at the time (mine included).

There was the ridiculous situation during the Wembley Park refurbishment in 2005 for example when LUL staff were waving Oystercard holders through the non-working Oystercard touch points saying "It's fine, it'll work itself out". I know it was ridiculous because I had to put myself out to put my bloody account right after listening to them!

No the credit cannot be applied to a new card - at least not until your team puts itself out and trains and equips and authorises station and other staff with a recognisable and understood means to do so - I have asked three times via two stations and one TFL Helpline (sic) numpty, and each time it has been refused. If you have obtained any degree of seniority in LUL and you believe what you say, then you should kick A*s at Canary Wharf and other stations where they haven't a clue how to provide service to Oystercard customers like me (because of the "them and us" culture and mystery that has developed between station staff and you Oystercard wallahs and your damned money-grabbing cashflow-like-no-tomorrow only for pure instant profit system.)

You sound like a typical example of someone blinded by the dream of their own technology.

I on the other hand have a wealth of experience in customer service at levels I don't think you could imagine, plus some in being responsible for implementing new technology designed to directly aid the customer.

Your blind faith is misplaced.

My criticism is totally valid, as I am sure your bosses know, but if you can't stomach the truth, do keep taking the shilling and telling it your way if it makes you feel better.

Voyager2002

Wow: a truly bitter response!

The truth is, when Oystercard works properly it delivers a fantastic service. Describing the system as "crooked" is not borne out by the facts, and undermines the valid points that the OP makes.

Many systems become un-customer friendly when fraud is suspected. I would imagine that a transaction with an invalid credit card meant that the Oyster card in question became marked as possibly fraudulent, and so the anti-fraud procedures kicked in, including the loss of deposit on a card suspected of fraud and so confiscated. In your case this outcome is unfair and unjustified, but I don't think the systems were designed for this kind of situation.

I would suggest writing a polite letter and hope that it will eventually be seen and acted upon by someone with a brain: they do exist, but generally have better things to do than answer the telephone to angry ranters.

And no: I don't work for TfL, nor have any connection with them. I am just someone who uses public transport in London and elsewhere, and remembers how much worse things used to be, and how bad they still are in some other places.

omen666

I no longer work for LUL however I know how the system works as I implemented it. So therefore not talking up LUL but stating the facts.

As for the deposit on the card, that is there so it does not cost LUL money to replace cards because numptys cannot be arsed looking after them. Also do not see why I should continue to respond to your posts when you are so adamant you are right when I know FACTUALLY what is correct.

peterbaker

Voyager and Omen, I think you are making absolute classic mistakes - irrespective of what you do now for a living, I recommend complaint handling refreshers ... but in your case Omen, as this is all rather close to your heart, here's some more info for you ... you might that way begin to see how my Oystercard became a rogue Oystercard through no ill intent or stupidity on my part.

It so happens that this evening I got hold of an excellent complaint handler at Oystercard. She listened. She was knowledgeable. She established rapport. She easily conceded those aspects in my observations that seemed not to fit with her understanding of procedure. She quickly countermanded the daft suggestion that I should lose my £3 deposit, and also easily agreed I would be able to move credit from old card to new once we had got to the bottom of things. She volunteered that she would be talking to all those I had spoken to in order to establish why they thought what they did was right, and correct that thinking if it was as necessary as she believed it was.

She stepped up and fully owned the problem and very patiently took down all the data she needs to fully establish what went wrong.

What did that look like? Basically at the outset, we seem to have a rather odd symptom of possible database woes - Omen might recognise some of it - it seems that despite the title on the document handed over on 12.9 when the card was confiscated, I haven't actually got a complete "Oyster Usage Statement" at all. In fact I have no idea how the items were selected for print in this obviously shortened statement starting December 2007 and ending 10th September 2008 but printed on 12.9 not at 08:19 as declared on the bottom, but actually at around 16:19 ()

Consequently I believe I was inadvertently given an incomplete i.e. printed false account statement by the ticket office staff. I imagine they thought it was complete, as did I until I talked it through this evening with the new complaint owner.

The statement shows an "Uncompleted Pre Pay Entry" dated last December (£4 advance penalty) which I believe I successfully complained about early in the new year (having insisted on a refund cheque I think) Next it shows a successful auto top-up in May, then another Top-Up on 1.9, then 8 or 9 normal touch in touch out transactions, then another Top Up on 10.9 - that was the day I noticed a double beep/Seek Assistance on the bus and took it to Canary Wharf LUL station to ask what the double beep was about.

Here's another clue ... on 2.9 I noticed a "Seek Assistance" message at Canary Wharf going in, and again coming out at Green Park. I bothered to query it immediately on both occasions even though my way was not impeded. At Canary Wharf I got "It's fine". At Green Park "It's a code 22. You probably held it too long on the touch point and it tried to read it twice". I pro-actively queried it and even had a bit of an argument with the Green Park ticket office guy when he said "There's nothing wrong with it. What you saw was normal". (I said that obviously it wasn't normal because it was generating error messages).

That Code 22 appears on the Statement as "Rejected Exit" (sic) ... actually the gate opened so no exit was rejected.

Now then, to cap it all, it seems that my registered credit card ran out in July, many weeks before error messages occurred.

And why doesn't my 12.9 Oyster Usage Statement show Failed Auto Top-Ups on 1.9 and 10.9??

Omen, I appreciate the system must have been a massive task to implement originally, and no original implementation on that scale is likely to be perfect, but here we are, four or five years down the line now(?) and still no-one really understands all its foibles in practice. In particular, few staff can make a proper stab at what is happening sometimes.

I have confidence now that I have found one that will sort it out and treat me right, but what I have seen is not acceptable and I still have no compunction in declaring that, in my view, for these problems to have been allowed to persist, some crooked dealing is occurring.

All major companies allocate a cost centre to complaints thesedays. I feel that TFL have turned a blind eye to complaints like mine because they know it would make a serious hole in their cashflow if they made it easy to give good guys like me their money back. I feel strongly that they would prefer to sit on my unusable unexpired cash credits and by their overall intransigence, encourage me to give up, leaving them with the windfall.

I am not seeking compensation or goodwill payments. I rarely complain for those heads unless I have suffered serious financial loss. Nor am I on any ego trip. I complain to right wrongs, and if provocative language finally brings the horse to water then that's good. I find complaints like this generally steal much of my time, but I strongly believe in principled customer service and will fight for that principle when I believe big company accountant types have crooked intentions about how they manage the cost of such things by deflecting, or by being economical with, the truth, and especially if they have their opportunist eye on so-called 'orphaned' or 'unclaimed' funds or on funds made dormant or sidelined or 'retained' (like the £4 penalty charge) by their tricky Ts & Cs.