I can't stand the doom crew anymore

beecher

Dithering_Dad wrote: »

Um, in your case, yes I do.

To be fair, you are often very rude to people who do not agree with you so it is a bit of a cheek for you to accuse others of the same.

carolt

Dithering_Dad wrote: »

Interesting that you only refer to the price of houses when they had reached the bottom of the market in 1993. Here is a table of average prices in Greater London, taken from the HPC website:

The Previous Cycle... and The Current Cycle
Yr./Mon Gr.Lond %Peak ... Yr./Mon Gr.Lond %Peak

1983.12 £41,168 39.12 ... 1998.12 £110,787 45.33
1984.12 £46,986 44.65 ... 1999.12 £142,233 58.19
1985.12 £55,568 52.80 ... 2000.12 £153,454 62.78
1986.12 £69,438 65.98 ... 2001.12 £179,546 73.46
1987.12 £85,356 81.11 ... 2002.12 £213,957 87.53
1988.03 £90,374 85.88 ... 2003.06 £212,824 87.08
1988.06 £96,334 91.54 ... 2003.12 £232,679 95.20
1988.09 102,422 97.33 ... 2004.03 £239,439 97.97
'88.12 105,234 100% P '04.06 £244,411 100% -Peak-
1989.03 104,963 99.74 ... 2004.09 £242,797 99.34
1989.06 102,476 97.38 ... 2004.12 £241,778 98.92
1989.09 £99,133 94.20 ... 2005.03 £241,918 98.98
1989.12 £96,193 91.41 ... 2005.06 £238,950 97.77 Qtrly:-£2968 -1.1%
1990.03 £96,474 91.68 ... 2005.09
1990.06 £94,125 89.44 ... 2005.12
1990.09 £91,857 87.29
1990.12 £93,540 88.89 ...
1991.03 £91,091 86.56
1991.06 £90,188 85.70 ... 2006.12
1991.09 £88,085 83.70
1991.12 £86,672 82.36 ...
1992.03 £83,349 79.20
1992.06 £80,497 76.49 ... 2007.12
1992.09 £79,224 75.28
1992.12 £76,605 72.79 ...
1993.03 £75,832 72.06
1993.06 £76,480 72.68 ... 2008.12
1993.09 £76,677 72.86
1993.12 £76,439 72.64 ...
1994.03 £77,851 73.98
1994.06 £77,703 73.84 ... 2009.12
1994.09 £78,015 74.13
1994.12 £78,018 74.13 ...
1995.03 £78,194 74.30
1995.06 £77,742 73.88 ... 2010.12
1995.09 £76,946 73.12
1995.12 £77,203 73.36 ...

Had carolt graduated in 1988, the average GTR London house price was 105,234, far above her 3x salary. Even just 3 years earlier in 1990 the average price was £96,474 Q1.

Strange that carolt graduated during the last HPC, was earning a pretty good salary and yet didn't take advantage of it. Even in 1995, two years after she graduated, she still didn't take her chance. Christ, no wonder she's such a bitter individual!

Well I'm hoping that she'll take the plunge this time around, I'd hate for her to miss out again.

Why is it 'interesting' that I refer to prices in the early 1990's? If you bothered to read the earlier posts, you'll see that that was because it was what was under discussion (see boyseven's (or whatever his name is) earlier post).

I didn't buy in the early 90's as (a) I was in my early 20's, had no idea where I wanted to live long term, and was having fun and a life, rather than focussing on rushing out and 'getting on the ladder' as people seem to imagine is normal now. And (b) I was advised widely not to do so, as people at that point were firmly of the belief that 'property was a bad investment, very risky, likely to go down further'. Which of course it did for several years.

People forget how much part sentiment has to play in the market. Just as the 'house prices only ever go up' mentality has largely driven the market over the last few years, when the reverse kicks in, the effect is just as powerful, as can be seen in the pace of recent falls.

WTF?_2

Cannon_Fodder wrote: »

you just edited that 2 mintues after !!!!!! put his response, in an attempt to look clever....

do you think we are stupid???


TROLL.

Yep - the edit was at 1.09, 2 mins after I made my post at 1.07. Well spotted :T

Quote:
Originally Posted by carolt
you must have been on a rubbish salary OR buying an unnecessarily lavish property.

IOf course it was just as hard then. My ar5e.

You're such an unpleasant person Carolt. Why can't you just make your point without having to add all the nasty stuff?

No doubt your 'tag partner' !!!!!!? will be along shortly to back you up. You guys really can't fight your own battles can you?

Watch out for !!!!!!? everyone, then ask yourselves if there are 'gangs' and 'bullies' on this forum....

Last edited by Dithering Dad : Today at 1:09 PM.

(just thought I'd quote the entire post, before it 'disappears' later when DD goes back to delete posts that make him look bad as he has been caught doing on a number of occasions)

Dithering_Dad

beecher wrote: »

To be fair, you are often very rude to people who do not agree with you so it is a bit of a cheek for you to accuse others of the same.

Depends on who you think drew 'first blood'. As you can see from the reaction to my 'carolt why can't you just make your point without all the nasty stuff comment', where the usual HPC crowd ganged together and started at me like a pack of Jackals. No wonder then that I give back as good as I get, anything else would be giving in to the bullies.

This time though, I've said my piece and will mosey along and not get dragged into their little games. They do this periodically to try and blur the point that people outside of the gang are making.

If you say anything against their gang members they abuse you with names like 'Troll' and 'BTL scumbag' and 'I hope your wallet is suffering because of the HPC', etc, etc. I don't understand hwo they're allowed to get away with it. They revel in forcing people off this forum.

Well, I'm not going anywhere. Do your worst! :rotfl:

moggylover

carolt wrote: »

Rubbish. I know lots who bought their own places in the early/middle 90's with no effort at all. You must have been on a really paltry wage or desperately overstretched yourself to find it that hard.

I think the one thing that you always seem to be able to miss in your "summary dismissal" of hard times in the past - is that if the average wage is X, then by far and above the LARGEST percentage of the population will be on an awful lot LESS than the average.

What might seem "paltry" to you - would thus have been the point from which the majority of people would have starting. Even the majority of new graduates in the 70's and 80's and probably 90's were earning rather more than the ordinary man in the street - but the man in the street was just beginning to realise that he too had the right to buy his own home - and that indeed - it was often cheaper to do so than to rent from private landlords, and that even were you to buy your Council house, in two or three years time the rent would probably be higher than the mortgage payments, although the first couple of years were often appreciably difficult.

I do agree that SOME areas of the Country (i.e. London and the S.E.) had seen preposterous rises in house prices: but I fear that until someone actually addresses the problem of getting companies to set up in other less over populated areas of the country - any respite that this area sees in the next few years will be as short lived as the last one was.

That some of that increase had spilt over into other areas was really a mark of just how far many people were forced to commute in order to work and still afford to buy a home, and this then spread further as people from those areas also had to move further from their work in order to afford their homes.
The waste of petrol/diesel involved in this scenario alone makes this system so un-economic as to be glaringly stupid - but it will continue for the forseeable future without a more extensive shake-up than a temporary glitch in house prices will offer.

I repeatedly come and look on these house price forums, and I do agree that the "equity release" loans and over-lending by finance companies and banks have contributed: but the picture is much bigger - and the insistence on judging by such poor examples as "what a new graduate could and could not afford then" is not going to shine a light on a long term solution!

That always smacks more to me of "poor little me - look what I want and can't have" rather than any true desire to see a more sensible approach to ensuring that suitable housing is affordable to all (which as far as I am concerned it damn well should be in this day and age) and that boom and bust economics in the housing market are controlled.

IMO, until such time as the work/employment prospects are equalised throughout Britain, we will only ever see this sort of pressure on housing returning, and as we then have people adding in the "want" factor to their "need" for housing then the pressure on certain areas will continue to be unsustainable.

I have great sympathy for the people on ordinary wages (i.e. firemen, nurses and police officers, shop workers and so forth) who have, in some areas, absolutely no hope of ANY kind of home of their own, and often not even of renting a half-way decent one - I find it much harder to have sympathy for those that consider themselves hard done by when it is not that they cannot afford a home at all - but that they cannot afford the one that they feel their "status" in society should entitle them to as I doubt they feel any kind of sympathy for those driven out of an area by the rising prices in areas which have been "re-generated" by the upwardly mobile moving in and "improving" the area. If that "re-generation" does not extend to even the lowest of the low in that parish then it is not "re-generation" so much as "invasion" albeit with money not violence.

As an incomer to a very poorly paid and serviced area of West Wales, I am wholly aware of the difficulties this can cause to those that have (as far as I am concerned) a right to be able to continue to live in an area which their family has been in for many generations without being priced out of the market by those buying, for instance second homes, btl's, or holiday lets, etc.

That the answer to all of this is extreme I am well aware - that those shouting hardest for a major fall in property prices would then be those least willing to see a sensible rationalisation and control of housing is what annoys me most. i.e. if your concern is for ALL of the nations people then fair enough: if your concern is only for yourself or a minority, then it is hardly valid!

boyse7en

carolt wrote: »

No - as I said, you must have been on a rubbish salary OR buying an unnecessarily lavish property.

I was a recent graduate then and I am referring to new grads with no more than a year or 2's work experience, buying an average 2 bed flat in London. Price then - 60K (or 72K in Camden - how expensive!). Salary - new grads average 14K so probably 16-18K after a year or 2. Mortgage = 3 times salary plus small deposit.

Same flats now - 250-500K. New graduate salary - 20K ish? I believe. Maybe 22-24K after a couple of years? So 10-20 times salary multiple to get the same flat.

Of course it was just as hard then. My ar5e.

Well, sorry, I have no idea how hard your ar5e is.

But I never said "it was as hard then", in fact, if you can be bothered to read my post before throwing insults, I said it is harder for FTBs now - how clear do I have to make it?

carolt

Very fair post, moggylover, and I don't think our opinions are very far apart. I quoted the figures for grads and London because I knew them from personal experience. But 2 points:

1. London prices were then and always have been more expensive. I can remember seeing some lovely family homes for sales (big houses, not starter flats) for sale in nice areas (not London) for 35-50K at the same period. Surely even a non-grad on below average salary could have aspired to something then? Unlike now?

2. Buying is not for everyone. Not everyone wants to buy or is going to have secure enough employment to make buying a realistic option. Otherwise you end up with a US sub-prime scenario where totally unsuitable people are lent money they have no hope of repaying to buy property. That's where a good supply of reasonable quality social housing and/or regulated privately rented housing comes in - or should come in, in a civilised society.

carolt

boyse7en wrote: »

But I never said "it was as hard then", in fact, if you can be bothered to read my post before throwing insults, I said it is harder for FTBs now - how clear do I have to make it?

No you didn't. Here's what you actually said, boyse7en - post number 70. If what you meant to say was that it was hard then but is much harder now, I'd still disagree. It was easy then and it's hard now.

But it wasn't what you actually said. Your original post stated it was always equally hard. Which is nonsense. Hence my post.

boyse7en wrote: »

The idea that, at some Utopian point in the past, FTBs didn't worry about the mortgage and had money spare to go for nights out doesn't tally with my memories of either my parent's struggles to make ends meet when I was a child (1970s), nor my own experiences of buying my first house back in the early 1990s. It was no holidays, old cars, cycling to work, no take-aways, no restaurants, hand-me-down clothes, etc.

It has always been difficult to afford to buy a house, whether it was in the 70s, 80s, 90s or 00s

Cannon_Fodder

Dithering_Dad wrote: »

Um, in your case, yes I do.

and yes, he falls for the trap...

"how dare you bully me, you beastly person"....one minute.

the next, rude/names/bullying himself.

so many faces you can't remember which one to stick on. difficult to maintain all these facades isn't it.

pot kettle black....

(oh no, he's been racist, hang him!!)

carolt

It depends if you view posting discussions on house prices falling as 'irrelevant or off-topic messages'; I - strangely enough, view them as central to discussion on a house price forum...

If you can prove they are false, please do so.

And I shall be as persistent as I like, despite your attempts to prevent the message getting across. Of course you'd love a forum where no-one ever disagreed with you and suggested house prices could fall.