Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

HateLPG

DAVID.T wrote: »

Hi,
It appears there is not a dam thing the gas supply companies can do to stop wholsale prices rising. Unfortunatley LPG is traded on a world market price like oil , so lets say we all said we wont buy it at the prices they are asking, they would just ship it out of the UK, they have plenty of other people who will buy it. The only way it could be stopped was if the government made them sell some LPG made in the uk to the UK population at a set price.

Just a warning to all who view this site, price at the moment is not the main worry, its lack of product. All UK stock of LPG in now depleated and the refineries cannot produce enough for demand. I am already receiving calls from customers of other gas companies who have run out and are being told they wont get a delivery till January!!!

Make sure you order before you are too low, 30-40% not 5% and check your tank level now!!!

Thank you David.

The first point I would like to make is that given the current supply issues (caused in part by demand, and in part by the effects of the recent bad weather), and that we are approaching a major "holiday" season, the advice to order early is sound. This is NOT the time to be trying to save a few pennies by delaying your order (given the way prices are going at present, it's unlikely that there is any saving to be made that way anyway). Whether or not your company is prepared to accept an order if your tank is at 40% is another matter entirely!

As far as price goes, I think most, if not all, of us recognise that the price of LPG and all other petroleum based products is going just one way, and sadly, that is UP. It's a harsh reality we are going to have to face and I don't think the Government is going to step in any time soon, if at all. They are already trying to condition us to expect to pay higher prices for these products (note the reports on expected increases in energy costs that came out just yesterday) , and I believe there are a number of reasons for this, some inescapable fact, some simply political:

1. Demand for petroleum and related products is increasing and we all know the supply is not infinite. Whether or not we are yet past "peak oil" (that's another argument in itself), we have to accept that in a "free" market, as demand increases, prices rise.
2. The Government has targets to meet under the Kyoto protocol. They are not going to meet those targets unless and until there is a paradigm shift and a move towards greener forms of energy across the board. There are many things they will need to do to achieve this, but one very effective way to achieve a reduction in greenhouse gasses is simply to allow prices to rise until it becomes economically viable (or simply just necessary) for consumers to consider and use alternatives;
3. As a corollary to point 2 above, if the price of petrochemical products is rising and domestic consumption can be reduced, that will increase the revenue generated by by exporting our high grade oil and gas to countries that are willing and able to pay a higher price.

That covers the wholesale price issues, and I accept that in this respect, our suppliers are at the mercy of the global market. However, that doesn't alter the facts that the prices being charged by the retailers vary wildly dependent on the contract the consumer can negotiate. While it is clear that location and rate of consumption will have some impact on the delivered price, I simply do NOT accept that it can more than double the cost of the gas, even taking into account any "loss leader" or "promotional" prices - prices quoted on this forum in the past couple of months range from 32ppl to 68.95ppl if memory serves!.

Furthermore, if we are to take at face value the assertion that the poor LPG retailer is entirely at the mercy of the wholesale market, why did not one single user (excepting those few dealing with Extra Fuels) report a drop in price when the wholesale price of oil fell dramatically last year??

HateLPG

"You and Yours" are broadcasting a "follow-up" to their story on the price of heating oil on Monday 20th December. From the BBC website:

Monday, 12:00 on BBC Radio 4 (FM only)
What protection is there for consumers who rely on heating oil to heat their homes? The industry isn't regulated at the moment - we'll be asking if it should be. And we'll ask the Federation of Petroleum Suppliers why prices have shot up so quickly at a time of cold weather and high demand.

So I would suggest that if you want them to ask some probing questions regarding LPG, it would be a good idea to contact the programme ASAP.

As posted before, The programme can be contacted by email at [EMAIL="youandyours@bbc.co.uk"]youandyours@bbc.co.uk[/EMAIL], or via the main BBC Switchboard (0845 519 1471) and asking for the "You and Yours" production office.

This is a prime opportunity to start getting heard!

GrandadRob

Taking David T's point of the suppliers having no say in the price of LPG. While that is true, it is still a market place, and if consumers become more aware of this, the main companies will just have to pare their profits or go bust. They are only getting away with it because of understandable ignorance on the part of most consumers who are taken in by the blurb on the companies price hike letters.
If this issue gains more publicity and the consumers get more knowledge you will see the price tumble then. No wonder the suppliers want to keep this secret squirrel routine going.

SD-253

Goldie99 wrote: »

Hi Brandeberryj - just a 'heads-up' - you might want to check with Energas BEFORE you place a new bulk order. I was in the same position as you, similar standing charge, paying 33p a litre for bulk deliveries, and also received the September 'warning letter' re. expected price increases. I also heard no more after that, have not been notified of a firm price increase whatsover, but I've just had a tank refill - the new price is 43.5p a litre - that's almost 32% higher since end September..... and contractually, I don't see a thing I can do about it. They claim to have sent out price increase letters, but there's no way to prove that - I never received it, and you obviously didn't either, so .....

Well I wouldn't be surprised if they simply didn't send them out. I recently emailed them and got no reply. Anyway I am certain that my 75% full tank will see me through the winter as I am burning wood most of the time and only have the heating on for 1 to 2 hours (ignoring that my boiler is in the attic and comes on if the temperature drops below a certain figure IE the last 2-3 weeks) and don't heat my water. Also it has only gone down from 87% to 75% (tank) over the last year. So good chance I may have 2 years supply of gas.......as long as I keep getting wood at my favorite price.....nothing.

SD-253

GrandadRob wrote: »

Taking David T's point of the suppliers having no say in the price of LPG. While that is true, it is still a market place, and if consumers become more aware of this, the main companies will just have to pare their profits or go bust. They are only getting away with it because of understandable ignorance on the part of most consumers who are taken in by the blurb on the companies price hike letters.
If this issue gains more publicity and the consumers get more knowledge you will see the price tumble then. No wonder the suppliers want to keep this secret squirrel routine going.

There have been some huge increases in gas reserves recently.
For instance the US has gone from major importer to self sufficiency with an estimated 100 years of reserves (Shale gas). In the Middle East there are now huge amounts of gas being transported to the rest of the world in the form LNG in the UK there are 2 ports/terminals which have the equipment to put it in to the gas pipeline. There is also plenty of shale gas available in Europe. Although there are problems with its extraction in highly populated areas unlike in the Texas wilderness. Now this is all natural gas but I would be very surprised if this did not impact long term on the price of LPG maybe even changing from LPG to LNG??????

mitchy74

Just managed to move my parents LPG to shell, two months after starting my move. Both at 32.5ppl with a max 3p rise in the second, third and fourth 6 month periods.

howarddiana

L-J-R wrote: »

Flogas are obviously very concerned about their extortionate charges. We won't have to pay them because they seem unable to supply us. Our order, made two weeks ago, is unfulfilled. Each phone call elicits a different response - I was hopeful when the lady I spoke to a few days ago said she would register it as an emergency, but subsequent calls indicate that this hasn't been done. Our tank is registering less than 5%, but today's Flogas employee informed me that it would have to be empty to get an emergency response - so it's back to the hot water bottles and heating switched on for an hour in the evening.

Contacted Flogas nearly a month ago- tank at 30% as they ask before you order. After many promises still no delivery- each person you talk to says something different. Tank is now down to 7% and our case has been marked as urgent but still being fobbed off. We have switched the heating off now to preserve for Xmas Day but worried that the boiler may freeze up and also the pipes. We are surviving on hot water bottles and a calor heater that takes bottles (no more left in our area and so we are being very mean with this too). No electric fires in stock anywhere.

Have spoken to "Russell" at Flogas- a nastier man you cannot imagine who is lining his pockets with our money. We use 4,500 litres per year and we use the heating spaingly. Horrible to pay so much for so little and still be freezing. What a nasty company Flogas is. They have had a month to deliver and although I realise there are now transport problems they have had many opportunities to deliver. They do not care about individuals- it's all about their profits.
Xmas has now been cancelled as far as family coming is concerned.

I'd like to move suppliers but fear others may be as bad. We are not in a contract so we can move but might be a step to far.

frankie

Contact Flogas and tell them your tank is now empty, also remind them of their responsibility to ensure continuity of supply.

This link should allow you to enter your postcode to see lpg suppliers in your area. Don't see any point at all in staying with Flogas after their treatment plus their poor reputation. Especially too as you're not in contract.

http://www.uklpg.org/supplier-search/search.php

May also be worth looking at Extrafuels who do a monthly pricing structure. However, you will be buying at premium price at the moment. (Unless you can haggle an intro deal with them)

Extra Fuel - LPG Gas Suppliers - LPG Bulk Tanks & Domestic LPG

See backposts on this forum for more info and good luck in getting some lpg in soon.

Oh, and if you havn't already done so, can I encourage you to say thanks on the lpg manifesto here:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=39205254&postcount=477

heather8

I've e-mailed the BBC as requested by others.

My gas started the year at 33p, it then went up to 42p in October and now its 59p, I think the letter said.

I use a little company called BDS fuels and they have said that once the price comes down they will pass it on to their customers. Time will tell. My tank was filled up the other day, I bought a new boiler last year and I'm hoping for some warmer weather. I can't afford to fill the tank up until around April time.

The deal that someone has posted about shell sounds good. Might give them a ring, but I'm contracted until Sept

HateLPG

Another reason to get your orders in early!

Flogas Tanker overturned on M25 near Clackett Lane

This is not in anyway intended as a criticism, merely as an observation. Something went seriously wrong here (thankfully not catastrophically wrong). In the light of this I would fully expect all distributors to be reviewing when they consider it safe to send the tankers out and at what point it becomes a "no go"!

It's easy to criticise the suppliers for failing to make deliveries, letting tanks run down to fumes etc, and yes they do have a responsibility to ensure continuity of supply, but they also have an overriding resposibility to do this in such a way as to minimise the risks to their staff, customers and the general public. I don't know exactly how much one of these delivery tankers typically carries (maybe DavidT would know), but I was told a while back (by someone who knows about these things) that mixed in the right proportions with air, a full 1200 litre tank of LPG (that's one of the SMALL above-ground domestic tanks) sufficient explosive energy to make a "BANG" pretty much as big as that at the Buncefield Depot in December 2005. And believe me, that was a BIG bang - I'm a VERY heavy sleeper and that particular bang managed to wake ME up, even though I was about 10 miles away at the time!

Just something for all of us to bear in mind when deciding whether to place an order or are gnashing our teeth / freezing etc because the delivery hasn't made it through. I placed an order over a week ago, before this latest lot of cold weather and still waiting. Here's hoping it makes it through this week - but given my location, I guess that's not likely if the roads don't improve, and even less lilkely if we get hit by the next load of snow. At least it's safer to transport logs around in this weather