Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

getmyacttogether2016

Evening all

I'm moving into a property next week that has lpg and property has been empty for at least 8 months with an underground tank? After eventually finding out who the supplier is (Calor, they initially stated the tank didn't belong to them) we had a quote of 37p + vat per L and 24.57p + vat daily tank charge.
Contacted a couple of other companies some which were dearer but another significantly cheaper. Asked about moving over to the cheaper supplier (Avanti) but advised takes 28days so would need to use what is in the tank in the meantime. (28p +vat per L ans £110.00 yr tank charge).
Major problem there as tank is empty so we would have no heating or hot water if we tried to change and I don't fancy that at this time of year and currently no other form of heating.
Only option is to tie in for 2 years at the price given but after reading here will mark in my calendar to shop around when the 2 years are up.

LittleVermin

getmyacttogether2016 wrote: »

Evening all

I'm moving into a property next week that has lpg and property has been empty for at least 8 months. After eventually finding out who the supplier is (they initially stated the tank didn't belong to them) we had a quote of 37p + vat per L and 24.57p + vat daily tank charge.
Contacted a couple of other companies some which were dearer but another significantly cheaper. Asked about moving over to the cheaper supplier but advised takes 28days so would need to use what is in the tank in the meantime. Major problem there as tank is empty so we would have no heating or hot water if we tried to change and I don't fancy that at this time of year and currently no other form of heating.
Only option is to tie in for 2 years at the price given but after reading here will mark in my calendar to shop around when the 2 years are up.

Switching takes UP TO 28 days, it does not take 28 days. You sign the switch form and your new supplier does the work. There are several reports of the outgoing supplier (notably the majors!) causing delays, offering improved prices, etc but usually it goes smoothly and fast. Your new supplier may well fill your tank before you sign a contract - mine (Extra Fuel) did after BP (now owned by Flogas) played hard ball, refusing anything but a complete fill at the extortionate price they were charging me (before I knew about this forum). It's worth asking! Fortunately for me it was spring-time when my tank was nearly empty so we saved the last precious drops of LPG for the cooker.

Both outgoing and incoming suppliers have to ensure you do not run out of gas - according to the Competition Commission (apologies: I wrote "Monopolies and Mergers Commission" originally) report which 'governs' domestic bulk LPG 'market'. If you have grief contact the LPG officer at the CMA (Competition & Markets Authority), the current successor to the CC [email Sharon Dias [EMAIL="Sharon.Dias@cma.gsi.gov.uk"]Sharon.Dias@cma.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL] - she was there in April and I hope is still there: she had dealt with LPG for some years so is aware of the major suppliers' anti-competitive behaviour.

BTW 24.57 pd for tank rental is quite high - that's £89 a year. A normal figure is £50-70 for an above-ground tank.

Good luck! And, please, keep us posted. Remember that you can probably buy a few £10 electric heaters to tide you over if the transfer is taking the full 28 days. Tell the incoming supplier your predicament: the independents are run by humans! And your contract may be sent to you digitally to sign, saving delays in the Christmas post. And please name the suppliers (either for brickbats or bouquets)!
..

getmyacttogether2016

Thanks LittleVermin

Will speak with OH as they are dealing with the LPG. Will get him to take a look at this thread so he knows what to say to them.

Really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

GMAT

UKGasMan

First post on MSE and may I just say that in the main it's a great forum with lots of helpful advice.

I work in the LPG industry (although I can't name the supplier for obvious reasons). I just wanted to correct something in LittleVermin's post yesterday - whilst the "up to 28 days" for domestic tank transfers quote is largely correct, it can actually take up to 42 days. This is if the incoming supplier does not wish to purchase your current tank. In such cases additional time is allowed for installation, as per the Competition Commission Order. This isn't likely to happen, but is a consideration at this time of year. Alternatively, the new supplier would require written permission from the existing supplier, which never happens. To confirm, Sharon Dias is still an appropriate point of contact in cases where suppliers are "dragging their feet".

I'm a little concerned about the phrase, (quote) "Your new supplier may well fill your tank before you sign a contract" - where there is an existing tank in situ, another supplier cannot fill it until the transfer process has been completed. In my many years of experience, this does not occur unless a contract has been signed, therefore this would be illegal. If any supplier did this I (personally as a consumer) would be questioning whether I would want to deal with a company that ignores the rules when it suits them. As I said in the opening sentence, it's great to share experience and advice, but surely it's best to stay above board.

mcmullank

UKGasMan wrote: »

First post on MSE and may I just say that in the main it's a great forum with lots of helpful advice.

I work in the LPG industry (although I can't name the supplier for obvious reasons). I just wanted to correct something in LittleVermin's post yesterday - whilst the "up to 28 days" for domestic tank transfers quote is largely correct, it can actually take up to 42 days. This is if the incoming supplier does not wish to purchase your current tank. In such cases additional time is allowed for installation, as per the Competition Commission Order. This isn't likely to happen, but is a consideration at this time of year. Alternatively, the new supplier would require written permission from the existing supplier, which never happens. To confirm, Sharon Dias is still an appropriate point of contact in cases where suppliers are "dragging their feet".

I'm a little concerned about the phrase, (quote) "Your new supplier may well fill your tank before you sign a contract" - where there is an existing tank in situ, another supplier cannot fill it until the transfer process has been completed. In my many years of experience, this does not occur unless a contract has been signed, therefore this would be illegal.

Welcome to the thread. Can I just ask you to clarify which law is being broken? There was nothing in the orders from the CC that prevented a third party company from filling a tank.

Personally, as a consumer, I would look favourably on a company that was willing to help me out in the short-term without the contractual relationship being concluded.

JerryW

UKGasMan wrote: »

... - where there is an existing tank in situ, another supplier cannot fill it until the transfer process has been completed. In my many years of experience, this does not occur unless a contract has been signed, therefore this would be illegal. ...

Hello UK Gas Man! i hope reading this thread and finding out what folks think about LPG supply has not been too much of a shock for you ..

I know nothing about the legalities here, but I would like to and if you can help us I will much appreciate it. As a starter, if I am renting a tank from (say) Calor or Flogas and my 2 year exclusive contract with them has expired, why am I not free to fill the tank from another supply source? I think that is a fundamental point that should be clarified.

I like LPG as a fuel but the supply side of both the gas itself and also boilers and other stuff that runs off it seems to me a very difficult marketplace indeed, from the consumer's point of view.

UKGasMan

Thanks McMullank. this may not fall within the scope of the CC Order, after all this is primarily focused on allowing the consumer to switch in a timely and fair manner. The vessel is the legal property of the current supplier - it is illegal to tamper or interfere with the installation (use without permission is still tampering), much as it would be illegal to borrow someone's car without permission. Furthermore, HSE (COPS) dictates that the last supplier to fill the tank becomes responsible for the installation - how could a third party supplier be responsible for something that doesn't belong to them? Although I do not prescribe to be a legal professional, I can say that my company has successfully pursued "less credible" suppliers for misuse of our property. The filling of cylinders when they do not belong to you is also illegal.

I take your point that they are doing something for you when you are in a difficult position, however if an LPG supplier will risk court, which other laws/regulations will they ignore? I would much rather a company be honest about my options (however limited they may be), rather than doing something underhanded to ensure a prospective customer signs with them. Just my personal opinion.

JerryW: if your exclusivity period has ended then you can switch to another supplier, but as described above, nobody other than Calor (or Flogas, I'll refer to them as Calor for the sake of speed) will be able to fill their vessel. Switching is very easy as many people have noted. Be warned though, some suppliers automatically renew domestic contracts, so you may want to call around for prices elsewhere, sooner rather than later. If you are happy with them as a supplier, call three or four for a price/fixed price period/credit/cap (although the latter seems to be worth very little nowadays) and then ask Calor to give you their best price. It may be an even better idea to put in a switch notice to another supplier (SSN1), and then Calor will only have a limited time to retain your business, meaning they will bend over backwards to keep you!

I have read the thread for some time, so I know that there are very mixed feelings!

Tinhat

I think as UK Gas Man was pointing out, your tank is owned by the company that you signed your contract with so another supplier should not be filling it.

However, I don't think there would be anything to stop you from getting a large lpg bottle connected while you swap suppliers. You own the pipe work from the tank to your house.

The cost of this could be worthwhile if your current supplier will not negotiate on price...

(I wrote this before UKGasMan's comprehensive reply above, which I agree with).

mcmullank

UKGasMan wrote: »

Thanks McMullank. this may not fall within the scope of the CC Order, after all this is primarily focused on allowing the consumer to switch in a timely and fair manner. The vessel is the legal property of the current supplier - it is illegal to tamper or interfere with the installation (use without permission is still tampering), much as it would be illegal to borrow someone's car without permission. Furthermore, HSE (COPS) dictates that the last supplier to fill the tank becomes responsible for the installation - how could a third party supplier be responsible for something that doesn't belong to them? Although I do not prescribe to be a legal professional, I can say that my company has successfully pursued "less credible" suppliers for misuse of our property. The filling of cylinders when they do not belong to you is also illegal.

I take your point that they are doing something for you when you are in a difficult position, however if an LPG supplier will risk court, which other laws/regulations will they ignore? I would much rather a company be honest about my options (however limited they may be), rather than doing something underhanded to ensure a prospective customer signs with them. Just my personal opinion.

JerryW: if your exclusivity period has ended then you can switch to another supplier, but as described above, nobody other than Calor (or Flogas, I'll refer to them as Calor for the sake of speed) will be able to fill their vessel. Switching is very easy as many people have noted. Be warned though, some suppliers automatically renew domestic contracts, so you may want to call around for prices elsewhere, sooner rather than later. If you are happy with them as a supplier, call three or four for a price/fixed price period/credit/cap (although the latter seems to be worth very little nowadays) and then ask Calor to give you their best price. It may be an even better idea to put in a switch notice to another supplier (SSN1), and then Calor will only have a limited time to retain your business, meaning they will bend over backwards to keep you!

I have read the thread for some time, so I know that there are very mixed feelings!

Sorry but none of this is backed up by any legal framework. The COPS that you refer to are not issued by the HSE but by UKLPG and as a non-statutory body, these codes of practice do not form any legal framework. The HSE legal framework for LPG can be found here.

It quite clearly shows that the responsibility under the Pressure Systems Safety Regulations 2000 rests with the owner of the tank where a rental agreement is in place. Again, nothing in these regulations prevents any supplier from filling a pressure vessel. Modifications etc. are another issue but quite simply you are wrong to state that it is illegal to fill an LPG tank that is owned by a third party.

mcmullank

Tinhat wrote: »

I think as UK Gas Man was pointing out, your tank is owned by the company that you signed your contract with so another supplier should not be filling it.

However, I don't think there would be anything to stop you from getting a large lpg bottle connected while you swap suppliers. You own the pipe work from the tank to your house.

The cost of this could be worthwhile if your current supplier will not negotiate on price...

My car may be owned by a leasing company but they don't tell me where to get my petrol from. If you are out of contract but continue to rent your tank, there is no contractual nor legal requirement for you to purchase the LPG from the tank owner. The rental that you pay should include for the UKLPG mandated inspection (which is (from memory) visual every year and tested every 10 years)