Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

rembo

:mad: Hi Little Vermin
Have been sitting for a long time typing re price increases and lost the lot!!
I think I will precis this a bit now as follows:_
We have an increase on 1st April 2012 to 63 ppl which was alleged to be due to price rises! Yea right!!
On 23rd Oct 2012 we received a further increase of 67.38 ppl allegedly due to increases in refinery and transportation costs." We appreciate the difficulty that price increases have on our customer and that is why we have limited THE REFINERY AND TRANSPORTATION ELEMENT of the increase to0.5ppl absorbing the rest of these costs ourselves."
Would that be a demonstration of a so called cap??
As many of us have not signed contracts, and we were told by the developer that after the last unit was sold then a two year period would commence. This happened two months past.
I think that the 100% signature clause is going to be our downfall.
Thanks again LV shining brightly like a star!

longforgotten

You will probably be amused that I shot an email off to Prince Charles

I say good for you. The price Flogas is charging you is truely outrageous.

On a metered estate you would think it cheaper for Flogas, or indeed any supplier, to provide you with gas. Flogas is taking advantage of the difficulty you have in changing supplier.

Have you thought of writing to your local paper. Some local papers have a letters page ..... tell everyone how much Flogas is charging you after all you would only be telling the truth. We're the lucky one's to have the internet and learn about the range in prices, your letter in your local paper maybe a real eye opener to some.

Rembo keep your chin up.

HateLPG

rembo wrote: »

We have an increase on 1st April 2012 to 63 ppl which was alleged to be due to price rises! Yea right!!
On 23rd Oct 2012 we received a further increase of 67.38 ppl allegedly due to increases in refinery and transportation costs." We appreciate the difficulty that price increases have on our customer and that is why we have limited THE REFINERY AND TRANSPORTATION ELEMENT of the increase to0.5ppl absorbing the rest of these costs ourselves."

To clarify, I am assuming that:

1. you were advised prior to 1st April that prices would increase as of 1st April to 63ppl;
2. you received notification in 23rd October that there was to a further increase to 67.38 ppl (i.e. an increase of 4.38ppl), and that this increase was comprised as follows:
   1. 0.5ppl to cover increases in the refinery and transportation elements of their costs (the rest of which, they "generously" agreed to absorb);
   2. 3.88ppl, which was justified how?

Note, from the graphs (here) that, as you must have been advised in March of the increase to be applied in April the, wholesale price on which that increase was predicated can only reasonably be taken to be the March price (which was 40.28ppl). This is actually the highest wholesale price ever seen so as such, ANY increase from that price point can not in any way be justified against increases in wholesale pricing. I am not sure whether they are claiming that the 3.88ppl component was down to an increase in overheads or wholesale costs. If they are claiming it was due to an increase in wholesale costs, I think you have them over a barrel as that is an unjustified and unjustifiable increase, given wholesale pricing over that past 12 months;

If you read the OFT/Flogas undertaking, you will see that:

1. Flogas are now required to include details of how price increases are determined/limited in their contracts, and
2. that such terms are automatically conferred onto existing customers until such time as they are issued with a new contract.

So, the first thing you need to do is to get sight of the Flogas contract that any NEW customer joining your estate would be offered, and to study the price increase clauses very carefully (as you are talking about a metered estate here, I won't post the non-metered customer clauses in this post, to avoid confusion, although if you are interested, I have posted them elsewhere on this thread in the past). If you believe that the increases would not have been justified under the clauses of the current contract, then write to Flogas and state that you wish to be released from your contract on that basis (you will almost certainly need to get all those currently under contract to sign), and further, that you require a refund of everything paid for supply over and above the rate that caused breach of those terms, Remember to keep copies and send it by signed-for delivery.

I would fully expect Flogas to come back and claim that as you have not informed them within x days of any price increase, that you have lost your right to cancel. I am no legal expert, but I suspect that they would be on very thin ice there, unless they had written to every customer and informed them of their new terms and rights of cancellation following their agreement with the OFT (which I very much doubt they have done). You must, of course, give Flogas fair opportunity to rectify the situation and release you from your contract (don't be bamboozled into just accepting a lower price if you can help it), but stick to your guns, and if they get awkward, make it very clear that you will be contacting the OFT to make a formal complaint if they are be in breach of their agreement with the OFT (and it wouldn't hurt to mention at that state that you will also be writing to the Competition Commission, your MP, various relevant Secretaries and Shadow Secretaries of State, HRH Prince of Wales, HM Queen etc etc.)

Good Luck

rembo

Good Evening Hate LPG,
I have to bow to you and Little Vermin, you really are a pair of wizards.
Thank you both so much. I sit here struggling with all the paperwork to try to rid myself of this problem, and when I look on this sight there you are like a pair of fairy godmothers (in the nicest possible way)!!
1. We were advised on March 28th 2012 as follows.
"A combination of rising oil prices and a number of supply issues throughout the European market has had a significant impact on the wholesale cost of LPG. We have done what we can to offset as much of this impact as possible over the past 2 months, but prices have risen such that we now have no choice but to pass on a level of these increases to our customers.
As of the 1st of April your new price will 242.55 pence per cubic metre ( 63.00 pence per litre)

Re the letter for 23rd October 2012 for increase to 67.38 ppl as foll:-

'Dear customer,
The wholesale price of LPG as publichsed on 5th October 2012 has risen since your current price was established. This unavoidable rise in the cost of product combined with increases in refinery and transportation costs, means we are now applying an increase of 16.86 pence per cubic metre (4.38 ppl) to your existing LPG price. We appreciate the difficulty that price increases have on our customer and that is why we have limited the refinery and transportation element of the increase to 0.5 ppl, absorbing the rest of the cost ourselves.
YEA RIGHT!!
It is interesting that not many of us have signed contracts with Flogas so have no small print to check out. I am in the process of getting all to sign up to a Termination of Contract. Meanwhile will try to get sight on any new Contracts, that may have been issued.
I have to date written to the CC. OFT. The new energy Minister, my MP. HRH Prince Charles re the Royal Warrant.
Still think the sticking point is the 100% signatures when properties change hands.
Anyway you are another little star, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your guidance.!:T:A

rembo

Thanks LONGFORGOTTEN. I have written to everyone that I can think of and more besides. I really is an encouragement to get letters from you all. It makes all the effort worthwhile
Rembo

LittleVermin

rembo wrote: »

.......I think that the 100% signature clause is going to be our downfall.....

The strongest bit of evidence you could have is the prices Flogas has charged you plotted on the chart HateLPG posted.

I've just printed off a copy of the chart and plotted your present and previous prices .... and of course they plot near the top - where HateLPG has his key!

Ideally you'll plot all the prices people on the estate have been charged since the first ones moved in. [I assume everyone gets charged the same? Though this is not guaranteed.]

I would send the chart complete with your figures to OFT. And Francis Maude, MP. And also take it to Trading Standards (a few TS have been useful when approached, I gather, but most not).

Thanks for all the letters and emails you are sending. If you write to your local paper do mention this forum - the LPG suppliers want to keep us like mushrooms, in the dark.

.................
Thanks for the choc bunny! Pity it got eaten (in front of my very eyes, to make it worse!). "It's the thought that counts" LittleVermin squeaked, between his chocolate-less verminous incisors..... No, I don't think I'll try being an author.

HateLPG

rembo wrote: »

Good Evening Hate LPG,
I have to bow to you and Little Vermin, you really are a pair of wizards.

Thank you <blushes>

rembo wrote: »

1. We were advised on March 28th 2012 as follows.
"A combination of rising oil prices and a number of supply issues throughout the European market has had a significant impact on the wholesale cost of LPG.

Actually fair enough. Thus far (notwithstanding that the baseline price was outrageously and indefensibly high)

<snip>

rembo wrote: »

As of the 1st of April your new price will 242.55 pence per cubic metre ( 63.00 pence per litre)

This is good. It gives you an undeniable baseline from which to work.

But then....

rembo wrote: »

23rd October 2012 for increase to 67.38 ppl as foll:-

The wholesale price of LPG as publichsed on 5th October 2012 has risen since your current price was established. This unavoidable rise in the cost of product combined with increases in refinery and transportation costs, means we are now applying an increase of 16.86 pence per cubic metre (4.38 ppl) to your existing LPG price.

This really is pernicious, if not downright dishonest. As Flogas are quoting prices on specific dates, I can only assume that they are using the Platts index, as that is quoted on a daily basis (as I understand it, the ANSI index is taken from an averaged set of price-points). It seems quite clear what game Flogas are playing here: define a price at a given point in time, and as soon as the price exceeds a given trigger point, even if only for one day, and irrespective of what prices have done in the meantime, apply an immediate and apparently-binding price increase.

For the record, the FOB Seagoing Propane Price (in $/tonne) according to the Platts index (as shown by the red line on the graph), stood at 945-950 on 28th March 2012, and the $/£ exchange rate was 0.630790879. This works out at a wholesale cost of 34.78ppl;

On 5th October, the index stood at 1010-1015 and the $/£ exchange rate was 0.6237962069, which works out at a wholesale cost of 36.76ppl;

If you view the graph, you will see that these point costs are NOT a fair representation of the market. Furthermore, even playing this nasty little game, they can certainly justify an increase of no more than 1.98ppl and certainly not the 3.88ppl that they are (in my opinion) dishonestly attributing to an increase in the wholesale market.

Of course, my figures could be wrong, or they could be using a different set of calculations or different points in the index, so I suggest your immediate first course of action should be to write to Flogas and insist that they provide detailed and substantiated proof of wholesale LPG price on the dates in question (i.e. provide concrete justification for the price increase). You might also want to take the opportunity to ask why, as the wholesale price fell to an 18-month low between May and August 2012 (hitting a low equivalent to just 19.0ppl on 21st June 2012), they failed to pass any of this reduction on to their customers.....

LittleVermin

rembo wrote: »

....there you are like a pair of fairy godmothers

Yes, we both wear pink tutus (I've just checked!).

But PLEASE don't tell anyone.

rembo wrote: »

.............................It is interesting that not many of us have signed contracts with Flogas so have no small print to check out. I am in the process of getting all to sign up to a Termination of Contract. Meanwhile will try to get sight on any new Contracts, that may have been issued........................Still the sticking point is the 100% signatures when properties change hands........

Fuel poverty is a concern that many councils pay lip service to - and some are doing something about - e.g. Malvern Hills DC. One of their officers read this forum, had some discussions and did research and set up a scheme with Lister Gases whereby MH people could sign up to a deal where they get their LPG at a price fixed monthly above the current market rate. MHDC monitor this - and HateLPG posts the prices on the chart. The MHDC Lister price is about the same as Cardiff Gas's - and they are the cheapest on the block (apart from super-duper intro prices from some of the majors to get people to sign 2 yr contracts). Here's the link - http://www.malvernhills.gov.uk/cms/communications/news/2012/october/lpg%20fuel%20deal.aspx

Maybe if you talk to your council - mentioning the local independents like HBS and Rose Gas - the council might be keen to set something up? And you might get the legal eagles from the council on your case! Result!

I gather from Malvern Hills that the scheme has got off to a good start, other councils have enquired about it - and some local people have used the scheme's prices from Lister to get better deals themselves. So everyone is a winner (er, except the big suppliers, and another local supplier, Countrywide - Countrywide Farmers - which had some people on very high prices - see posts in this forum).

BTW How many properties on your estate, please?

...

PS You happy with a fairy godmother with a beard? And 6ft 5?
..

frankie

Calor price increase

Just had a price increase from Calor from 52.4 up to 55.9.

Reason - I have benifited from a price that has been below their standard tariff and this special rate has now ended.

I have no paper work to say I ever was on a 'special' tariff. I haver been though this subject with them before. They cannot tell me what their 'Standard' tariff is.

Canny how they have kept the price increase to 3.5 though!!

I'm getting pretty peed off with them and will be looking to go Extrafuels when my Current contract expires in June. Just have to eek out the gas till then. Wish the weather would warm up or I'm going to be on fumes!!

AdrianC

Hi, all.

Thanks to everybody for their contribution to this thread - I've learnt a lot, very rapidly.

We've just exchanged today on a house in the Welsh borders (HR3), with a FloGas-labelled LPG tank in the garden. A nearly empty LPG tank. It's definitely out of any contract.

So. We're going to need to fill it, and sharpish, once we're moved in.

I went through the list of suppliers found on UKLPG's supplier search, and emailed them a bit over a week ago, all with the same email, giving our details and situation. Mole Valley Plus weren't on there, but got included thanks to this thread.

Of that lot...
FloGas, Lister, Avanti and Cardiff couldn't be bothered to reply.
Countrywide's email domain seems to be rather dead - several attempts all failed.
Calor quoted 48p/6mo fix or 49.9p/12mo fix with £150 gas free, plus 16.9p/day above ground or 24.57p/day below ground tank rental.
Mole Valley quoted 46.5p/unfixed, and ignored the request for tank rental prices.
Callow quoted 45p/unfixed, and a nice round £12/quarter rental.

Callow were also the only ones to point out the price was excluding 5% vat without being asked.

So - looks like Callow it'll be. Calor's freebie nearly swung it, but Callow's apparent general niceness and competence overcame that.