Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

mad-mark_2

LittleVermin wrote: »

Hi mad-mark - and welcome to the Bulk LPG thread.

I suggest you write asap to the Office for Fair Trading. The OFT sent me this last November re the Competition Commission Orders, and domestic LPG contracts:
<snip>

Please keep us posted!

Thank you LittleVermin - I have emailed them just now, including scans of the letters I received from AvantiGas, sharing my concern that they are disguising a two year contract sign up behind a "just confirm your details" communication. Let's see what they say.

Five pounds says nothing will come of it...

Seraphinaoflondon

I'd posted this earlier on an old thread and it was suggested that I re-post here on the sticky thread.

I am in a similar position to the OP. We are in England and are at the pre-exchange stage. In our case, the tank is underground so if it is removed, we'd have a big hole to fill and landscape and of course a new boiler to fit. I would actually rather have oil but the existing LPG boiler is a modern combi-boiler and I think it would cost several thousand to fit a new oil boiler? Not to mention a tank.

However, at least then we don't have the nonsense of being tied to one supplier and the fuel is cheaper.

I'm going to have to instruct my solicitor, I suppose? Nobody has yet suggested that we are inheriting a contractual liability -- I guess that would have to be a clause in the contract of sale?

Suppose I tell the tank owners to get stuffed and remove their kit....

1. Can I do that, in law?
2. If they take the tank must they fill the hole and make good?
3. If they don't take the tank, who is responsible for a gas tank with remnants of gas, un-inspected and unused?

I'd really appreciate some help on this. I've searched Calor and FloGas's websites and they don't mention this problem (surprise, surprise) and direct you to a phone number to speak to their 'team'. I don't want to talk to their 'team', I want to read the contract, but how?

Many thanks

HateLPG

mad-mark wrote: »

What concerned me more though was a letter from Avanti Gas asking us to "confirm that your service agreement details are correct" by signing and returning a form. I assume all people shifted from Shell were sent this.

Hi Mark, and welcome.

When did you receive this letter asking for confirmation of service agreement details?

My memory is not the best, granted, but I have no recollection of ever having received any such letter, and these days I would never sign anything for an LPG company without having first scrutinised the small-print exhaustively . I have checked back through my files and it appears that the only letter I have ever received from Avanti making any specific reference to a supply agreement was dated 14th October 2011, and explicitly stated:

...There will be no changes to your account or any gas interruption, and your supply agreement will transfer with all terms remaining the same...

While it is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for Avanti's apparent actions, I just wonder, were you still within the two-year exclusivity period when you received the letter in question? If not, that might at least explain the reason for the letter, if not the apparently underhand nature of it.

Please keep us posted with OFT and other developments.

HateLPG

Seraphinaoflondon wrote: »

Suppose I tell the tank owners to get stuffed and remove their kit....

1. Can I do that, in law?

While they may not exactly like it, and I am sure that they will try to hit you with an uplift charge, if you have never entered into a legal contract or supply agreement with them, then yes, I would say you have the right to say whatever you like to them (provided it not so rude or inaccurate that it breaches laws of defamation, discrimination etc )

Seraphinaoflondon wrote: »

2. If they take the tank must they fill the hole and make good?

Sadly, no. Basically, you (or the existing owner) will have to pay for all groundworks required to enable the supplier to lift their tank and for all remedial work after. Any contract states (in so many words) that the company is liable only for capping the pipework off safely. driving up a truck, loading the tank on to it,
and driving away again. They are, of course, still liable for any additional damage caused by their incompetence or negligence, but that's about it!

Seraphinaoflondon wrote: »

3. If they don't take the tank, who is responsible for a gas tank with remnants of gas, un-inspected and unused?

The tank will remain the property of the supply company at all times, irrespective of whether you have signed a contract with them or not. However, if you don't sign a new contract, they can pretty much turn up and recover their property (i.e. remove it) whenever they want (with fair notice, I believe).

LittleVermin

Seraphinaoflondon wrote: »

I'd posted this earlier on an old thread and it was suggested that I re-post here on the sticky thread.

I am in a similar position to the OP. We are in England and are at the pre-exchange stage. In our case, the tank is underground so if it is removed, we'd have a big hole to fill and landscape and of course a new boiler to fit. I would actually rather have oil but the existing LPG boiler is a modern combi-boiler and I think it would cost several thousand to fit a new oil boiler? Not to mention a tank.

However, at least then we don't have the nonsense of being tied to one supplier and the fuel is cheaper.

I'm going to have to instruct my solicitor, I suppose? Nobody has yet suggested that we are inheriting a contractual liability -- I guess that would have to be a clause in the contract of sale?

Suppose I tell the tank owners to get stuffed and remove their kit....

1. Can I do that, in law?
2. If they take the tank must they fill the hole and make good?
3. If they don't take the tank, who is responsible for a gas tank with remnants of gas, un-inspected and unused?
<snip>

Welcome to the forum (and thanks for posting in the BULK LPG... sticky! I hope the answers you get will be useful to others and can be found through "Search this Thread").

My answer will only help a little. The tank could be owned by the supplier or it could be owned by the householder: nearly all tanks are owned by the supplier and there will be a 2yr exclusive supply contract with the (previous) owner. This contract will not apply to you, and you have various options. 1) negotiate a new contract with the tank owner 2) buy the tank and find the best price for each fill 3) search for a new supplier and then the tank owner will {I think} have to offer the tank to your new supplier - who may, or may not, buy it. Why I have put {I think} is because normally the situation arises when a LPG user wants to switch at the end of a 2 yr contract and then the routine is laid down by the Competition Competition Orders (which include a formula for the price of the tank). More info here.

As your tank is underground you may have trouble finding another supplier willing to take it over - and if you buy it you may have trouble finding suppliers to fill it: they much prefer surface tanks which can be checked visually very easily by the tanker driver before each fill! Underground tanks need annual replacement of the cathodic protection. There are posts about this within the last 6 months.

In your case I'd ask the householder to provide the name of the supplier - and a copy of his/her contract. And the tank rental charged, and his/her annual usage (this will help when you come to negotiate! The more you use the [slightly!] cheaper it will be. Oh yes, and the price(s) paid. You'll have read, no doubt, about the totally horrendous prices charged - and the horrendous range of prices.

If you want to get rid of the tank I'm sure the owner will remove it - they are quite valuable - and there have been 2 annual increases in the formula (so it's often cheaper for a supplier to bring in their own tank rather than switch). They will bring a tanker to pump out the liquid and gas left, then lift the tank onto a truck (i.e. a Hi-Ab truck). Obviously they prefer an effectively empty tank so only a Hi-Ab truck is needed. I would doubt they will make good ....
..

Bosun

Hi All,

I have just come out of a 2yr agreement with Calor and are currently being charged a whopping 56.4p/l +VAT. Calor have suggested if I sign a new two yr deal they can hold the price at 50p/l +VAT for 6mths with a standing tank charge of 16.9p/day.

I have the man from Avanti coming round in 30 mins to discuss supply and they are offering 39.4p/l for 2 yr deal which is 30% below what I am currently paying!! This price is fixed for 6mths after which capped to max 5p/l increase every 6 months. Alternatively they can offer 41.9p/l fixed for 12 months. The lady on the phone suggested that Calor's price will be capped to a max of 7p every 6 months.

So what is the general concensus of gas prices - will they rise or fall in the near future so should I go with fixed 6 mths or 12?

Also, Avanti would therefore seem to be a much better option, but does anyone have any bad experiences with them or is there anyone else in my area (Kent) I should be looking at for supply?

HateLPG

Bosun wrote: »

I have the man from Avanti coming round in 30 mins to discuss supply and they are offering 39.4p/l for 2 yr deal which is 30% below what I am currently paying!! This price is fixed for 6mths after which capped to max 5p/l increase every 6 months. Alternatively they can offer 41.9p/l fixed for 12 months.

Hi Bosun, and welcome.

Just couple of quick questions:

• what is the "cap" on the price for the second twelve months if you go with Shell? If it is also 5ppl/6months, I would say it's a no-brainer - go with the 12-month fixed option. Be aware, though that the "cap" is only really a "trigger point" at which you have the right to walk away from your contract and seek an alternative supplier.
• Would you mind posting your current approximate usage - unless you are a "high" user, this would seem to be an extremely favourable deal.

The offer of a 12-month fixed price is an interesting, and probably welcome, departure from normal practice. Also, at the rate being quoted (41.9ppl) it would suggest that Avanti take a far less gloomy view of the LPG supply situation than some. But it does make me question still further the latest 2ppl price increase they have offered me and other existing customers!

Seraphinaoflondon

Update from Seraphinaoflondon:

Have this moring spoken to Flogas -- Katie, Flogas 0800 574 574 --- 0116 264 9000 (saynoto0870.com gives the geographic number for those of us who don't get 08 numbers in their talk plans). Katie very pleasant and rather better informed than you'd expect from a call centre. She promised to post me a copy of the standard terms of contract for the property I'm buying. She said that any contract between Flogas and my property ends on our purchase. She said that we could buy gas without a contract but it would be more expensive. The daily standing charge would be payable from day one of our ownership (?!). I didn't bother to debate it with her because soon we should have a copy of the contract but how can they charge us anything unless we use their service?

She said that they would uplift the tank if we request that, once we own the property.

So I'm thinking that we might ask the owners to buy enough gas on our behalf before we complete on the purchase to last a month or two, and ignore Flogas altogether. During this period we can get a quote for alternative fuels -- probably oil but how about wood pellets? Then after a month or two compare the options open to us.

Comments from your good-selves on this forum would be gratefully received.

Seraphinaoflondon

A quick update and thanks for the useful replies so far.

This morning I had a meeting with my solicitor and mentioned the tank issue. She said that frankly they don't get involved other than to recommend to the client that they should have the tank checked.

Obviously that's not appropriate where the vendor doesn't own the tank but I wasn't going to raise all that while the clock was ticking on my account. Basically, this seems to fall outside a solicitor's remit. I suppose they'd have a view on any contract but normal conveyancing prices are based on all the forms being standard, i.e. the same. There is very little legal opinion in conveyancing. Beware.

The_Hornet

Ace_gas_guzzler wrote: »

Phoned Countrywide yesterday regarding the new increase and queried the fact that one of the contributors to this topic was being supplied by Countrywide at 43p per litre while I was being charged 52.1p per litre. The young lady I spoke to suggested that the 43p customer was a grain drier :rotfl:

As the person who has recently been supplied by Countrywide at 43ppl I can assure you thet my home is NOT a grain dryer!!! It is a fairly standard 4 bed dormer bungalow and my annual usage is of the order of 3500 litres. And just to remind you, I am out of contract and free to shop around.

I also mentioned in an earlier post that I had emailed Countrywide for clarification of the reasons behind the proposed increase. It won't surprise anybody her to know I've heard nothing from them.