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[jobbingmusician]

I'm ashamed of myself - sorry that I didn't manage to get back to you last night. Off to work now, but I really will try to write more fully later today

Sounds as if you are doing brilliantly, anyway

[jazzyman01]

They are now doing what they should have done from the start. Agreeing the bundle documents.

Chase again for the bullying/harassment policy and advise that if it is not forthcoming you will request this from the ET. Also ask them to provide a list of the combined bundle documents - and ensure that they include the page numbers. This should contain all documents that both parties will rely on in court. They will throw things from his file to show his character and try and show that they have had other problems with him in the past. Just ensure that your OH has a reasoned response.

Go through the documents with your OH - play devils advocate - try and get him riled on a couple of points. IT really does help if he can keep his cool at ET.
MY experience with ET would suggest that you will be given some leniency with the panel - they will ask questions that may help you. It is very likely you will be against a barrister who will have experience, dont let that fluster you. Most of the barristers/solicitors come across as aggressive/pushy in their communication both written and oral when preparing/conducting a case, but are really very nice socially.

[floss2]

Originally Posted by jazzyman01

Chase again for the bullying/harassment policy and advise that if it is not forthcoming you will request this from the ET..

You should give them a deadline to send it to you - guidance says "a reasonable" period but can be 7 days if your tribunal date is fairly near. If they do not provide in that time, then email the Tribunal requesting an order from them to disclose the relevant document.

[jobbingmusician]

Originally Posted by Amber07

Well - it's done!!

Totally scrapped my stuff (well, not totally, it will come in useful for preparing Q's and things for the ET) and I followed their solicitors format instead

They sent a list with 42 documents. I have requested a copy of 9 of them plus enquired as to the relevance of a few. There are a couple there listed as a file note and a letter to a customer concerning quality that OH has never even heard of, let alone seen.

I have added further documents (they had a lot of ours listed already), taking the total number up to 57. That'll be fun photocopying that lot

I'm sending a paper copy, but have emailed as well so we can get our copies faster.

Also - no word yet on the bullying/harassment policy I asked for, or the original handwritten statements.

Honestly, if I had a memory I'd be dangerous! Anyway, here I am at last.

It sounds as if you are trying to put together a joint bundle?? This isn't what I've ever done - I have always had a separate bundle, which repeats some documents from the bundle submitted by the other side. Alternatively, it looks as if you are just asking the other side to send you the documents you haven't seen before, rather than the whole lot - part of me thinks this is sensible, and part of me wants to see their whole bundle, because the documents you think you agree on may in fact have been changed by their side, if their past performance is anything to go on.

I think that any memos, letters, emails etc. you have sent to them requesting documents such as policies which they have not (so far) sent also form part of the bundle, don't you? They demonstrate the difficulty you have had in preparing your case, the fact that they have not behaved as a reasonable employer, and the fact that they may not have these policies in place...... or if they have, that they are not the best employers in the world at notifying their employees of the policies (indicating in itself that a dismissal is likely to be unfair).

By the way, horrific though your bundle is to prepare, 42 documents is not a big bundle. If you had a chance to spend a day in an ET, you would see employers come in with 3 or 4 big (2 foot long) boxes full of documents. To be fair, they might not actually be the bundle, just supporting documentation, but the court is used to dealing with A LOT of papers!

I am about to start a new job, so have less time than I used to, but if you would like me to cast an eye over your list of docs, I will happily do so, and let you know if I spot anything that is missing. The same goes for your statement, although I appreciate this may be more confidential. PM me and I will send you an email addy, or you can paste stuff into a long PM if you would prefer. (And of course I will not take offence if you prefer not to do either of these).

[Amber07]

Well, I have had a hectic few days... I have got a solicitor!!

They have said they will take OH on legal aid ad are trying to rush it through for him. I can do any amount of paperwork/leg work but when it comes down to standing up at a tribunal and fighting the case we decided we needed an expert. (Expecially when we discovered their solicitors are the most expensive ones in the area!) OH is quite extroverted and would be happy to state his case, but he is too emotionally involved with it all.

Anyway, I have passed over all the docs to them, and all our letters and our solicitor is working on them. I am going to sit tonight and list the relevance of each doc and email it to her, to make thing clearer (and explain all the rubbish the other side are insisting on bringing up!)

To date - we have heard nothing from the other side since last Wed. We are still waiting for the bullying and harrassment procedure, the handwritten statements and the copies of all the documents I requested.

Going back through the disciplinary hearing, when OH was accused of putting £160 on his CC and taking the cash for it....he did ask at the time for the police to be involved to find out who the card actually belonged to. The director at the appeal said they were investigating. I must ask for the crime number and disclosure of the outcome of the 'investigation'

[Amber07]

Well, the tribunal has been postponed. The respondent requesting the extra day means it can't be fitted in following the original date

My solicitor is happy about it, but OH and I wanted the whole thing over and done with, so it's not so great in that way.

However the good news is that the solicitor has said we have more than 50% chance of success, Potential unfair dismissal, non-compliance with the statutory disciplinary procedure, attempts to convince him to resign before the investigation shows the decision to dismiss had already been made and the issues they are trying to say are gross misconduct should only really be classed as performance issues.

But then...you guys have been saying that all along...

[floss2]

Sometimes you need someone like a solicitor to say it too. Good news on the postponement, it may not even get there when they start to add up the potential cost of a judgement against them and ACAS ask how they feel about settling

[jobbingmusician]

LOL - typical conservative solicitor speak! Yes, more than 50% chance. In reality, a lot more than 90% chance based on the facts here.....

Sorry that you have it hanging over you for longer, but it is good news that your solicitor will have more time to prepare. If the solicitor says anything interesting (that doesn't breach your confidentiality, obviously) do post it on here, as we are all here to learn (and to comment of course! )

Good luck in the preparation with your adviser, and keep us informed.

[Debt_Free_Chick]

Originally Posted by Amber07

However the good news is that the solicitor has said we have more than 50% chance of success, Potential unfair dismissal, non-compliance with the statutory disciplinary procedure

Hi Amber

From memory - and I've not checked back - but I think this is the biggie .... non-compliance with the statutory disciplinary procedure. If I recall correctly, your OH was dismissed before 6.4.2009 OR the "so called" disciplinary procedure that led to his dismissal was instigated before 6.4.2009. If so, then his Employer's process should have been the statutory process and failure to follow that (exactly), is automatically Unfair Dismissal. I think this is why I was so bullish about your case, in the first place i.e. that the reasons for his dismissal are pretty irrelevant .... but the the Employer's failure to follow the statutory process means that are pretty much certain to lose.

Must check back and see if my memory of the situation is right!!!

[Amber07]

^^Thanks DFC

The solicitor reckons they will try and argue that the suspension letter was the Step one letter, but as it doesn't list the accusations and didn't give him a time and date for the disciplinary hearing, we are hoping it won't wash.

Got the paperwork to select the new dates - we are looking at Dec/Jan or Feb now. I'm hoping for a December date - i want this over and done with.

Interestingly, we heard from OH's ex co-worker today. Apparently one of the directors was musing out loud about why Oh was pursuing this, because he is 'definitely' not getting his job back and if they were going to pay money, it would have been cheaper doing that rather than getting a solicitor. Apparently the directors 'have it all sewn up' and they are 100% sure they will win

I want him to win to teach them that they can't just 'get rid' of people!!! They have done it to 2 others since OH left.

[jazzyman01]

Good for you to keep fighting this, as in most things there are good employers and bad employers. Unfortunately the bad employers rely on people not taking the case to ET or pulling out after threats and, regretably, in the current market people are putting up with more poor/bad management.

[jobbingmusician]

Originally Posted by Amber07

Interestingly, we heard from OH's ex co-worker today. Apparently one of the directors was musing out loud about why Oh was pursuing this, because he is 'definitely' not getting his job back and if they were going to pay money, it would have been cheaper doing that rather than getting a solicitor. Apparently the directors 'have it all sewn up' and they are 100% sure they will win

I want him to win to teach them that they can't just 'get rid' of people!!! They have done it to 2 others since OH left.

Sounds to me as if the director was sounding off deliberately to send a message to others and intimidate! All the more reason for you to fight and improve conditions at this company!

[floss2]

Originally Posted by Amber07

.....Interestingly, we heard from OH's ex co-worker today. Apparently one of the directors was musing out loud about why Oh was pursuing this, because he is 'definitely' not getting his job back and if they were going to pay money, it would have been cheaper doing that rather than getting a solicitor. Apparently the directors 'have it all sewn up' and they are 100% sure they will win.....

Do the directors know whether any of the co-workers are witnesses? If they don't already, they may well start intimidation when they get witness statements.....

[Amber07]

Hi guys, not been about for a bit - life getting in the way and all that.

Everythign has gone a bit quiet lately, since the postponement there hasn't been much to do. Our solicitor has got us on legal aid atm but is trying to get us cover through the house insurance (something I never thought would work!) They don't half string that out, I can tell you!!

Good news and bad news to report. Good news is that we have new dates, even though they aren't until January, I'm sure that will swing round pretty fast and at least it gets Christmas out of the way.]

Bad news is that our main witness (the under manager) has been promoted within the company and is now the 'right hand man' of the person who set out to get rid of OH. OH has been trying to contact him for the past fortnight now, but he isn't replying to any calls or texts.

If this had gone ahead last month like it should have, this would have been irelevant of course. Now, I'm not sure what way it's going to go.

We really aren't having much luck with witnesses. Out of 3, one has gone over to the enemy camp (lol) one has emigrated and one has died.

C'est la vie, eh.

[Amber07]

Originally Posted by floss2

Do the directors know whether any of the co-workers are witnesses? If they don't already, they may well start intimidation when they get witness statements.....

I would think so. We got a list of their witnesses from the tribunal, so they must have a list of ours

[sockpuppet]

I know how you feel - keep positive though! As you say, january will come round quicker than you think.
Have just been through all this with my OH (he won!!) and now going through it again with my employers... what fun. but I agree with you totally - they should not be allowed to just 'get away with it'

It sounds as if you have more than enough written evidence to not need to panic about the witnesses, and as op have said most of the time its not about the facts its about a fair procedure and this obviously hasnt been fair at all!

[pinkshoes]

Do you think it's possible that they've deliberately offered the witness a higher position in the company to prevent him from being a witness?

Was a promotion on the cards for him?

[jobbingmusician]

I wondered about this as well! Good luck for Jan, PM or post if you have any queries before then x

[HellsGranny]

This is a fascinating thread, I shall continue to keep an eye on it.

I am amazed at your tenacity, Amber 07, I would have given up long ago, but keep going! I am sure right is on your side and that you will prevail.

I cannot offer anything other than good wishes, unfortunately. Go You!

Cheers, Hells Granny

[SaintlyLinda]

I have just read all 15 pages of this!

Good luck Amber!