credit card clearance

OBIWAN wrote: »

Hi, its interesting reading the previous posts on the thread about this. Im in the middle of a dispute with Crapital1 and was wondering if someone could give me some advice.
I sent a CCA request 8 July 09 and a 2nd request 18 August, both by recorded delivery. I didnt receive a response and so I cancelled the direct debit.
I got a default charges letter end of August and since September Im receiving calls from their collections department. Im trying to politely remind them of their obligations as per my letters but they ignore my points and are threatening action and adding default charges to my account, and these are pushing me over my credit limit so theyre adding overlimit charges too.

Theyve cashed my £1 cheque and acknowledge my first letter and claim to have sent a copy of their terms and conditions but ive not received them.
Collections cant seem to help, they barely even speak english, and theyve said I need to discuss my account with customer services for a copy of my CCA.
What should i do next?

Im also concerned about my credit file. AM I wrong in assuming that they cant register data with a credit ref agency without my written consent, i.e. a credit agreement, which they cant prove they have, so what do i do if theyre showing me in arrears or over my limit?

Any advice or help would be very welcome.
thanks
Obi.

Hiya

If you're not currently defaulted then do not stop payments! The lender will issue a default notice....... this thread specifically states that it is ideally designed for people who already have a default....

Regards to the harassment, read this and quote them the relevant terms below when they next call you up: Dealing with Bailiffs Harassment

Harassment by Telephone

Dear Sirs,

Ref: XXXXXXXX

I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.

I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls and I now require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only.

I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.

Be advised that any further telephone calls from your company may be recorded and used in evidence and I expect this harassment to cease immediately.

Yours faithfully,


Sign Electronically

OBIWAN wrote: »

Hi, tks for the reply. Ive sent the first and reminder letters for a CCA and havent had a response so the account is now in dispute as theyre in default, thats why I stopped payment. Ive sent off the "account in dispute" letter today.
If they cant prove I have a debt then Im not gonna pay them. Is this the right thing to do?

When you say "default" do you mean the default term the c/card co use when u missed a payment, or proper default entered on my credit file, or the fact the c/card co is in default with me?
Theyve sent me letters saying my account has default charges added, so im a bit confused as to the terminology. Could you clarify it fr me?
Tks NID.
Obi

Hiya

I refer to the term default in the way the CRA's record data, i.e. the lender will report your missed payments to the CRA's and eventually default you (i.e. the status of the account will go from [0] to [D] with the CRA's which will mean bye bye to credit for the next 6yrs!

You have to make sure you know what you're doing here matey - basically, if your credit file was fine then make sure you pay - regardless of whether the lender is in 'default' of their obligations.

Obviously, if you went to court and they remained in default the court could demand the lender remove the data from the CRA's but there have only been a couple of cases to date; most recently Wilson vs HBOS (Leeds).....

So, you need to either take the risk of having a rubbish credit file or make the payments, irrespective of whether you feel the lender has breached their obligations...... :beer:

OBIWAN wrote: »

Ok, understood. It begs the question; whats the point in disputing the enforceability of my c/card agreement if im gonna pay it anyway?
I guess it does mean that Im avoiding extra interest and charges on the account and pay the balance off, since as theyre in default with me (if indeed they agree to work within the law, which they arent at the moment)

As i read it, whilst in default/dispute, until they provide a signed CCA, the c/card co cant share my data, so cant register a default with a CRA.

Bloody hell mate - you're up early! I thought I was the only sad one that got up at silly hours! lol

Right, to explain (its complicated so bear with me)...

Basically if the lender does not send your CCA then yes, they are indeed in breach of their obligations and the lawful process would be to cease payments until they do comply. Now, the only down side to this is that they will add a late payment marker/default as appropriate - yes, we know they cannot do this (legally) but they do. They know that not many people will pursue it through the courts.

They are chancers, basically. They seem to think that they can add data to the CRA's but we argue this is unlawful because no agreement means no authority to share data (in line with DPA). So you have a couple of options; report them to the ICO (who have as much power as an ashtray on a motorbike) and the FOS. The bottom line is that you are correct in ceasing payments, but the lender will try their luck until you take them to court to enforce removal.

Only a few cases have been won, in the norm the lender used to agree to the unenforceability but leave the data intact (default or otherwise) with the CRA's - until recently this was never challenged successfully, now it has been, there should be a new trend whereby the debtor can demand removal of data.

Its a catch 22 mate - as I said earlier, the lenders do what they want knowing you will not have;

a) the funds to proceed with court
b) the bottle (nerve) to see it through
c) the patience to see it through
d) the knowledge to beat their solicitors

So, its really a case of how far you want to push it mate. :beer:

But we're here for you, if you need help with threatening letters etc.... just pop over to this thread for best advice: Unenforceability & Template Letters and a lot of useful letters that i've done for people, arguing the validity of defaults here: Sutton's default removal letters (ive had a few defaults wiped for people)....

One thought; do the CRA not have a duty of care to not publish data that doesnt comply with the law? I was wondering if they did publish information without consent wouldnt that be a criminal offence, also perhaps libellous?

Ive been looking for a link on Wilson vs HBOS (Leeds) to have a read up but i cant find one.

IN THE LEEDS COUNTY COURT Case No: 9LS70096 The Combined Court Centre Oxford Row Leeds - 1st June 2009 Before HIS HONOUR JUDGE LANGAN QC
__________
BANK OF SCOTLAND
(Claimant)
-v-
ROBERT MITCHELL
(Defendant)
__________
APPROVED JUDGMENT
__________
APPEARANCES:
For the Claimant: MISS GARDNER
For the Defendant: MR BERKLEY QC
__________
Transcribed from tape by
J L Harpham Limited
Official Court Reporters and Tape Transcribers
55 Queen Street
Sheffield S1 2DX

1. I have to deal with an issue as to costs which have arisen on the informal discontinuance of an action.

2. The action was commenced on 21st May 2008. The claimant bank had, in December 2003 issued a credit card to the defendant, and the claim was for £15,417.23, being the amount said to be due on the defendant’s account. Judgment in default, for a total sum of £15,727.23, was obtained on 4th July 2008. The defendant subsequently applied to have the judgment set aside. That application came before District Judge Jordan on 29th January this year and was successful. The recitals to the District Judge’s order say this:

“And upon the defendant’s proceedings on the basis of a breach of
Section 61(1)(a) of the Consumer Credit Act, namely that the claimant
failed to comply with the requirements to give copies of all the
documents relevant to the agreement at the time of signing, and upon
the defendant contending that notwithstanding Section 65 of the
Consumer Credit Act 1974, Section 127(3) of the Act preventing the
enforcement”.

After those recitals it is ordered the court sets judgment aside, and it is ordered that there be “A determination of the issue set out above”. Various procedural directions then follow.

3. What has been listed for trial today is, “The determination of issue”, referred to in the order which I have just recited.

4. The agreement made in relation to the defendant’s credit card was a regulated agreement within the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Section 61(1)(a) of that Act provides:

“A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in the prescribed form, itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under Section 60(1), is signed in the prescribed manner, both by the debtor or hirer, and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner”.

Having regard to the date of the agreement made in this case, which was prior to amendments made to the Act which took effect from 5th April 2007, the result of non compliance with Section 61(1)(a) would be that the credit card agreement would be unenforceable against the defendant, see Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 127(3).

5. This morning I was informed by Miss Gardner, counsel for the bank, that the bank was withdrawing its claim against the defendant. This announcement has been accepted by Mr Berkley QC, who appears for the defendant, as equivalent to the service of a notice of discontinuance under the Civil Procedure Rules Part 38.3. By the Civil Procedure Rules Part 38.6.1:

“Unless the court orders otherwise, a claimant who discontinues is liable for the costs which a defendant against whom the claimant discontinues incurred, on or before the date on which notice of discontinuance was served on the defendant”.

Miss Gardner contends that the court should, “Order otherwise”, and make no order for costs as between the parties. Mr Berkley contends that the presumption in CPR 38.1.6 should operate, and further that the order for costs to be made in favour of his client should be an order for assessment on the indemnity basis.

6. The thrust of Miss Gardner’s submission is that the issue directed by the District Judge, and on which the evidence has been focussed, is whether the bank supplied the defendant at the time of signing the application form for credit with documents which contained all the terms of the agreement between them. I shall elaborate a little further on this. It has been the defendant’s case that he was supplied with nothing more than the application form which he signed. It has been the bank’s case that in accordance with the usual practice of the bank the defendant would have been, and must have been, supplied with other documents, including a pack which will have contained all the terms and conditions of the agreement made between the parties. Miss Gardner goes on to say that the defendant has at the last moment taken a new and radically different point, namely that the document signed by the defendant did not contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement. I must again elaborate on this. It is common ground that the only document signed by the defendant was the application form.

It is also common ground that the application form did not, on its face, set out the prescribed terms of the agreement between the parties. The point which is treated by Miss Gardner as a new point is dealt with in paragraphs 22 and 23 of Mr Berkley’s written argument, and it will, I think, be more economical if I simply quote those two paragraphs in full rather than attempt, in my own words, to expand on them:

“The key words in Section 61(1)(a) are the reference to a document itself containing all the prescribed terms, and conforming to the regulations under Section 61. This language is clear and specific, and ensures that mere reference to terms contained in another document will not suffice. The document must contain the prescribed terms, just as the signed document referred to in Section 127(3), which might save the day, must however contain the prescribed terms. The construction contended for by the defendant is entirely consistent with the language of Section 61(1), and is also supported by Professor Good in his encyclopaedic work - see Good & Consumer Credit Law and Practice volume 2, 2B 5.121, and see also the comments at 2B 5.247. There the learned author draws a distinction between the language of paragraph (a) contain and paragraph (b) embody. It is respectfully submitted that the court should adopt the same reasoning in determining this issue in favour of the defendant, irrespective of whether or not it finds that the defendant was supplied with documents other than the credit agreement itself”.

7. In my judgment, the point with which I have just been dealing is not properly to be characterised as a new point on which the bank can present itself as being taken by surprise. I refer to four documents. First, on 3rd November 2008, when the defendant was acting as a litigant in person, in the request to have the default judgment set aside he said this:

“As the court is aware, in the absence of all the prescribed terms being embodied, it will render a document unenforceable in court. These terms must be contained within the agreement, and not in a separate document headed ‘Terms and Conditions’, or words to that effect”.

Secondly, on 18th February 2009, solicitors, who were by then acting for the defendant, sent to the solicitors acting for the bank a copy of what they called an expert report setting out the reasons why the agreement was in breach of Section 61(1)(a), and they went on:

“As you are aware it is our client’s position that at the time he entered into the agreement he was not provided with a copy of the terms and conditions governing the agreement”.

If one goes to the so called expert’s report, one finds that it is in effect an opinion prepared by another firm of solicitors, and the opinion contains the following:

“Based on the information provided, it appears that the prescribed terms and conditions were not included in the document signed by the borrower. The agreement would appear to be in breach of the regulations in that it does not contain within the signed agreement itself all of the prescribed terms”.

Thirdly, that point having been taken on behalf of the defendant, it was robustly rejected by the solicitors acting for the bank in their reply of 19th March 2009:

“Our client has sought counsel’s opinion on this matter and her view is that the agreement is compliant. We note that your client is arguing that at the time of signing the agreement, the application for a credit card, he was not provided with the actual terms and conditions which were contained in a separate document to the application. Whilst our client accepts that the application itself does not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and only becomes compliant by reference to terms and conditions, there are references in the agreement to the conditions in which it states that they are provided in the Halifax credit card application pack”.

Fourthly, going back in time a little, on 4th March 2009, in the defendant’s witness statement made for the purpose of the trial of the issue, at the very beginning of the statement, in paragraph 3, he said this:

“It is my position that the agreement is not enforceable by the claimant as it has failed to comply with its obligations under Section 61 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 by failing to include within the document that I signed all the prescribed terms”.

8. The absence of further reference to the point in the evidence is hardly surprising, since the point is one of law, on which there was no controversy as to the facts.

9. Miss Gardner has given no reason for the withdrawal of the action. She is in no way to be criticised for the omission. She is bound to act in accordance with her instructions, and those instructions were presumably to say no more than she has in fact said. But this does not prevent me from drawing what is in my judgment the only inference which can possibly be drawn from what has happened, which is that the bank realises that if the issue were to be contested it would either lose on the issue or be at serious risk of losing. There may be hundreds of similar cases and the bank would plainly not wish other defaulting customers to get wind of an adverse decision on the fundamental point which is embodied in the quotation from Mr Berkley’s written argument, which I have already set out.

10. Accordingly, I conclude, without hesitation, that there is no reason for displacing the presumption as to incidence of costs which is ordinarily applicable in a case of discontinuance. The bank will pay the defendant’s costs of the claim, subject only to any existing order for costs in favour of the bank not being disturbed.

11. Finally, I have to consider whether the costs of the defendant should be assessed on the standard or on the indemnity basis. In my judgment the assessment should be on the indemnity basis. The only realistic view of what has happened is that the bank has surrendered on a straightforward point of law, to which it has on several occasions been alerted by the defendant or his solicitors. A large commercial enterprise which proceeds with litigation in the face of warning signs of the kind which were erected here, adopts a high risk strategy. The point in question was a simple one. There was no relevant controversy as to the evidence. To choose to abandon the claim on the very day of the hearing is doing a serious disservice to the efficient administration of justice, and comes very close to constituting an abuse of process. At the very least, the bank’s conduct of the litigation falls comfortably within the range of cases in which, on the modern authorities, an assessment of costs on the indemnity basis is appropriate.