Virgin Trains are bunch of con artists IMHO. Be warned!

Thanks to everyone who has posted a respone. As the "OP" I feel I ourght to respond to several of the points made and provide an update.

First, the update: well, actually, I still haven't heard from VT and they are now over their published 3 week response. I'll leave people to draw their own conclusions.

Now to address people's comments:

Moonrakerz:

1. You say that my "point 19 blows a hole in my argument" as being aware of their requirement to have the card meant that I had accepted this term. My response: I disagree. Had it been physically possible to have the card on me I would have but it was impossible. My understanding is that if someone places an obligation on another party, whether they accept that obligation is immaterial if that obligation can be proved to be disproportionately unfair. IMHO this obligation is disproportionately unfair and, therefore, my argument carries water.
2. You state that "as you are the CEO of a multinational company I expect you have had worse things happen to you than to lose £360". My reponse: that's completely irrelevant. The actions of VT cannot be expect to rely on my previous life experiences and the ranking of this one therein.
3. You posit that if someone else printed my ticket I wouldn't like it? Maybe not BUT the ticket is valid for a particular train AND a particular seat on that train only. Provided I can prove who I am (and given the fact that I had the sorts of documentation I had, I could) then that person should - rightfully - be prevented from travel. Current policy is to prevnt any one, even the ticket holder, from traveling. This must surely be a nonsense.
4. My absence to date was down to the fact that a) I have bee busy (traveling and avoiding the use of VT - as well as other Virgin brands - as much as possible) AND because I actually though the site would e-mail me if any responses were posted to my original post and, as I have received no notification I (wrongly) thought no one had responded. How wrong I was. I shall be checking back frequently from now on; rest assured.
5. I did not use the "do you know who I am" line at the station. I did mention that I am a CEO on my original post to this board to illustrate that I am aware of what my client perception of my business would be if I treated my clients in this way. That is not the same thing at all.
6. You might think £360 is a small amount of money. I don't. I would much prefer to give that to one of my staff as a bonus, or take my staff out for a Christmas lunch. Please try not to fall in to the trap of thinking that people in upper management "deserve" everything they get. It simply isn't helpful (or true).

Robt & lufcgirl:

1. I was traveling to Manchester 1st Class. The reason for booking 1st is that I can then work with my colleagues on the train on a table. That maximises our productivity on the journey.

Keith & Brookerdave:

1. I don't have a PA. I consider a PA to be an extravagance given the size of my company at the current time. So, I do the bookings myself.
2. I use the train as it is fast and more eco-friendly than using a car. The fact that other CEOs travel by other forms of transport is not something I see as being relevant here.

Voyager2002:

1. The issue was that it was an e-ticket. I selected this because I could then print the ticket and that would mean I could just go straight to the train. It never occurred to me at time of booking that I might lose the card (and a number of other items in NYC en route to the airport).

Brookerdave:

1. I am not blaming anyone for the loss of my card. I am saying that VT should have a policy in place to accomodate this eventuality and that producing irrefutable evidence of who I am - Passport, driving licence, the statement for the card used to book the ticket, and a printed copy of the ticket itself - should be enough to allow the ticket to be validated.

debsy42:

1. My complaint is not directed in any way at the quality of service that I have received on the train. That has always been good. It is directed at the inflexibility of the ticketing policy and the fact that VT don't seem to feel that they even have to repond to complaints.

DJBlu:

1. Some great points - and you're right, VT are the main operator of the London to Manchester service. In fact, I am not aware of being able to use a different carrier. The break-up of the railways may have given choice to the government over who they award franchises to but it's done nothing for consumer choice where you have only one operator that can be used.

sarah_elton & SweatPea73:

1. I also full support VT being tough on abusive passengers. Swearing at staff is unacceptable, in my view. Saying a swear word in a sentence that is not directed at the staff is not. Let me be very clear that I was not addressing their staff nor did I raise my voice AND I have witnesses who are prepared to testify to that effect.
2. There is no law against swearing on the railway per se (that I have been able to find but please point me at it if you knwo better). Swearing at an individual could be construed as aggravated assualt (or so I am told). Saying a swear word cannot. So, for example, if I rhetorically say "I think this is f---ing wrong" there is no law being broken. On the other hand, if I call someone "an f---ing moron" then I am very probably breaking the law.

bunking_off:

1. Waiting a couple of hours isn't an option if you have meetings to go to and VT know it, hence their fare structure.
2. It wasn't a fast ticket. It was an e-ticket and therein lies the problem. I could pick up a fast ticket for someone else even without my card. How do I know? Because I did so that same day for a colleague and it had been booked using one of my cards. The fast tciket machine was not working so the same guy issued it to me, without the card, using the reference number. But, because mine was an e-ticket they wouldn't let me travel without the card / purchasng another ticket.
3. I didn't lose my temper. In fact, I remained completely calm. And, as previsously stated, I can provide witnesses who are happy to testify to that effect.
4. Thanks for the tip on the call centre. I will call them and see what happens (and report back here with any news).

thescouselander:

1. I agree - to me the contract terms seem to be unfair and, therefore, unenforceable.
2. The point you make about airlines is a good one. After all, we are more concerned / cautious about secuirty at airport yet I have never had to produce the original card at the airport for an e-ticket. My passport has always been enough.

RichyRich:

1. I think what you say is, unfortunately, going to have to be the path I take. But, I am prepared to fight this on principle. Every time I think of the situation it makes me very sad that we are in this position. It also does reinforce my view that they are using every way they can think of to gouge the public for money. It simply isn't good enough to hide behind restrictive policies.
2. Thanks for all the advice too. Very sound and will be followed.

chuckley:

1. Your view would seem to imply that if I had my wallet stolen 5 minutes before the train left but still had the ticket, that would be my fault? Or, let's think of other scenarios: I go to get on the train, someone knocks in to me and my wallet falls between the train and the tracks. Hmmm... would I just have committed a breach of contract? I don't see your logic at all. The fact that I could provide: a) my passport; b) my driving licence; c) the credit card statement with my details on for the card that was used; and d) the printed ticket should, in my opinion, have been enough to establish that I was entitled to travel.
2. I didn't buy the replacement ticket on the train. I went to the ticket hall in Euston a full hour before departure (at the advice of VT Customer Services) to try and get the matter resolved and ended up having to buy the ticket there.
3. In the role of CEO you have to interact with clients all the time. My point was to do with that and the fact that were I to go around trying to gouge my clients tell them that thet were in breach of contract when an unforeseen problem occurred woul be unacceptable behaviour, not that I am the "big I am". I never once informed the ticket office people of my job title so you point about me being brought down a peg or two is irrelevant.
4. I did buy it at the station, so you point about "if you don't like the rule [of] sale" is also immateral. Not only for that point but also because companies cannot just make up any rule they like. Contracts have to be fair (that is the law). If they are not I am perfectly entitled to object to those rules.

brenda_p_a:

1. Thanks for the tip. I will see what comes of it and report back with any news.

Several people have made comments about the fact that I had stated that I am CEO of a multinational company and then proceded to put me down for various reasons, e.g. why are you traveling by train; why not use a limo; etc. the comment was to reinforce the fact that I have a lot of experience selling services to clients and that, were I to treat mine in this way they would all walk away. The fact that I am a CEO is actually irrelevant to the behaviour and policies of VT. It should be just as outrageous for them to treat anybody this way regardless of professional standing or any other aspect of their life.

OK... first point to note is that I am montoring this more closely now, honest

robt wrote: »

So, to clarify, the original ticket you booked was £95.50, and the peak walk up fare is £360 (which is correct, I'm not disputing).

Why on earth did you cough up for a peak time return, when you could of just got a single? Once you arrived in Manchester you could go to the Virgin ticket office there and explain what had happened (albeit again), and booked a much cheaper ticket for the return journey?

The ticket clerk told me that I had to buy a full price return and that that was my only option. Otherwise, in their words, they would not let me travel. I asked for another ticket and was charged £360. No option was presented to me.

robt wrote: »

As above, you need not have spent £360.

As above... wished I'd known that!

robt wrote: »

As opposed to when the choice was British Rail or British Rail. If you hate Virgin, and have the time, you could go to Sheffield and get the train from there, but you will not get the same level of service in first class.

And it would take a lot more time. I think (hope) I have been clear in saying that I have had no problems actually on the train. There, the level of service has been fab. As for the choice when it was British Rail, I agree. My point was more that whilts the government has sold deregulation to us on the grounds that it gives more passenger choice, that simply isn't so... as Barack Obama said: "You can put lipstick on a pig... it's still a pig" (I'm paraphrasing, before anyone gets me on a technicality).

robt wrote: »

IMO, Section 58 of the National Conditions of carriage would cover that. You may not think it, but it is one of those things which is open to interpretation.

I will check this out but if you're right then I think that's dreadful. I can understand banning people from being abusive to staff, and other passengers, and I would be in support of action taken against people who behave in this way. I used a swear word in describing my situation (not directed at the staff member) and was threatened with arrest; removal; and a ban on all future travel on VT. IMHO this is inappropriate. In any case, it is somewhat irrelevant to the main issue. Let's recap wha I believe the issues to be:

1. I am held to be in breach of contract if I don't produce the physical card that was used to make the booking, even if I can establish beyond all reasonable doubt that I am the cardholder AND even if I spend time on the phone and at the ticket office explaining he issues and trying to get them resolved.
2. VT Custromer service try to get me to report a non existent theft.
3. VT Customer Service then advise to go to the ticket office at Euston to try and get the matter resolved (had I replaced the ticket the day before, i.e. on the call, it would have only cost £95.50 to do so but that - and the fact that I would have to pay a different rate the following day - was not communicated by VT to me.
4. VT ticket office staff have no mechanism to deal with genuine loss and seem only too happy to threaten police action for breach of contract if I "wanted to make something of it" (this is separate to the fact that I used a swear word when describing my situation to myself later on).

So, as I see the situation... buy ticket; lose card; try to resolve problem on phone with customer services; get told to report card as stolen (even thouh it hasn't been); get told to go to ticket office to try to resolve; arrive an hour ahead of departure at ticket office to try and resolve matter; provide passport, driving licence, credit card statement, and printed ticket; get told you're in breach of contract and that the law can be called to prove the point; ask whether there is any other way this can be resolved; be told several more times that you are in breach of contract nd that "if you want to make something of it we can call the police but they're on our side"; be informed that only option is to buy new return or be denied travel; give over credit card; get presented with £360 bill; mutter "this is a f---ing nightmare" whilst waiting for card to be authorised; get threatened with instant arrest, removal from station, and ban on all future travel.

I think thi is heavy-handed, unnecessary, and I do believe quite probably illegal given the nature of contract law (but I am no expert on this so have to defer to m'learned friends).

BTW, I plan to use all legal options open to me to get my money back!