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Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?
Comments
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LittleVermin wrote: »I presume you are currently paying Calor much more than 50ppl, out of contract?
When I was with BP, out of contract, nearly 2 years ago I was paying 53.95 - which they offered to reduce to an initial 42.45 if I signed a 2 yr contract (but with useless topside guarantees). I switched to Extra Fuel, paying 36.29, their standard published price that month. Tank rental was the same (~£60). Since then the Extra Fuel price has gone up and down, monthly, as you can see on the graph, in step with the wholesale price.
"£50 of free gas", "£150....". Ace Gas Guzzler was offered £250 - see here! Maybe a little more room to haggle?
..
Once again, thanks for the very useful information. You've certainly provided material for the discussion I'll be having with Calor when the contract arrives.
I'll be sure to report back to the forum.
Extra Fuel are currently showing LPG at 54.28 ppl + VAT. Are you hopeful that price will drop over the next year? I'm not an expert but I think crude prices will rise as the US (and hopefully UK) moves out of recession. I have a friend who is an oil trader (not bernithebiker) who is betting on crude rising sharply.
It seems possible to me that Calor offer sweetened contracts in the hope that the customer will not renegotiate but simply re-sign when the contract ends. A diligent customer can therefore continue to obtain a good (relative to the market) deal from them. Well, it's a theory...
On a related note I have been in my current house just over 2 years. Just over a year ago I insulated the warm roof (i.e. no loft) with 100mm of Celotex, had draught-proof doors and windows fitted, replaced an open hearth fire with a wood burning stove (almost draught-free when not running), and had EcoBeads blown into the wall cavity. I have done a rough correction for heating days and still find that I have at least halved my fuel use (more than 2000 litres per average year -> less than 1000) even though I'm keeping the house about one 1 deg C warmer. It will take 15+ years to get my money back at current prices but I have lasting peace of mind from the reduced outgoings.0 -
Hi,
I am staggering from the latest price increase from Flogas putting my bulk LPG upto 75p per litre (78.75p inc VAT).
And we are paying about £100 extra per year for the tank!!!!!!!
Price has just gone up by another 6p litre.
I am not in contract as I do not want to commit to any company as I am very seriously considering swapping to Air Source or similar.
What are you paying for your bulk LPG? (I am in Devon).
Kind regards
Mindovermatter0 -
A few more details from my dealing so far with Calor:
Just to be clear: my (fortunate) situation is that I have a 2000 litre tank but only use 1000 litres per year, and I have 750 litres left.
Currently the zonal price for me from Calor would be 54.2ppl.
To get me back into a 2 year contract they are now offering 50ppl guaranteed for 9 months with £150 free gas credited to my account.
At the end of the 9 months they can put the price up by 3.5ppl in any 3 months so I would expect price to be 67.5ppl by the end of contract (50 + 5 times 3.5).
If they put the price up by MORE than 3.5ppl (LV you were correct: it is 3.5ppl not 3.5%) then they are in breach of contract and I am free to shift to another bulk supplier without having to pay an uplift charge.
I can sign the contract now and fill my tank in, say, 6 months (I have enough left in the tank now to do this).
In that case I believe I can probably get through to the end of the contract without buying any more gas, effectively meaning I have 50ppl for 2 years (= 42.5ppl after the £150 free gas).
Or I can top up after next winter in e.g. April at 57ppl and then get to the end of the contract for certain (if I top up with say 500 litres then that implies I will have paid 45.4ppl over the 2 year contract).
This worst case price of 45.4ppl seems competitive to me and I get price certainty, which I prefer to following the crude prices. I realise this is a personal taste thing though - I don't much like the stock markets either.
So I'm inclined to sign the contract unless someone can point out an error in my assumptions/sums.
Meanwhile, LV asked about the cost of insulating my house (Hope I didn't sound like an insulation salesman in my previous message!)...
My house is a fairly large converted 400 year-old stone barn. Only 3 bedrooms but they are tall (up to 4.5 metres) and the central hall is 7 metres high and we all know heat rises. The roof leaked and we knew it had to be renovated. The additional cost of insulating with 100mm of Celotex between joists was £2000. All doors and windows needed to be replaced and high-quality double glazing and draught-proofing was £2000 on top of a basic job. The conversion 30 years ago had involved building an inner leaf to the outer walls so I had an empty cavity 75mm across. After much searching I found a company to fill this with polystyrene beads for £1200.
So my extra costs were about £5200. I'm saving roughly £450 - £500 per year on LPG now.
Obviously if you are not renovating already then the cost of insulating a 'warm roof' would be much higher (loft insulation is cheap); secondary glazing is expensive if you are not replacing windows; if you don't have an empty cavity then the alternatives - internal or external solid wall insulation are much more expensive/problematic.
Hope this helps someone.0 -
A few more details from my dealing so far with Calor:
Just to be clear: my (fortunate) situation is that I have a 2000 litre tank but only use 1000 litres per year, and I have 750 litres left.
Currently the zonal price for me from Calor would be 54.2ppl.
To get me back into a 2 year contract they are now offering 50ppl guaranteed for 9 months with £150 free gas credited to my account.
At the end of the 9 months they can put the price up by 3.5ppl in any 3 months so I would expect price to be 67.5ppl by the end of contract (50 + 5 times 3.5).
If they put the price up by MORE than 3.5ppl (LV you were correct: it is 3.5ppl not 3.5%) then they are in breach of contract and I am free to shift to another bulk supplier without having to pay an uplift charge.
I can sign the contract now and fill my tank in, say, 6 months (I have enough left in the tank now to do this).
In that case I believe I can probably get through to the end of the contract without buying any more gas, effectively meaning I have 50ppl for 2 years (= 42.5ppl after the £150 free gas).
Or I can top up after next winter in e.g. April at 57ppl and then get to the end of the contract for certain (if I top up with say 500 litres then that implies I will have paid 45.4ppl over the 2 year contract).
This worst case price of 45.4ppl seems competitive to me and I get price certainty, which I prefer to following the crude prices. I realise this is a personal taste thing though - I don't much like the stock markets either.
So I'm inclined to sign the contract unless someone can point out an error in my assumptions/sums.
Meanwhile, LV asked about the cost of insulating my house (Hope I didn't sound like an insulation salesman in my previous message!)...
My house is a fairly large converted 400 year-old stone barn. Only 3 bedrooms but they are tall (up to 4.5 metres) and the central hall is 7 metres high and we all know heat rises. The roof leaked and we knew it had to be renovated. The additional cost of insulating with 100mm of Celotex between joists was £2000. All doors and windows needed to be replaced and high-quality double glazing and draught-proofing was £2000 on top of a basic job. The conversion 30 years ago had involved building an inner leaf to the outer walls so I had an empty cavity 75mm across. After much searching I found a company to fill this with polystyrene beads for £1200.
So my extra costs were about £5200. I'm saving roughly £450 - £500 per year on LPG now.
Obviously if you are not renovating already then the cost of insulating a 'warm roof' would be much higher (loft insulation is cheap); secondary glazing is expensive if you are not replacing windows; if you don't have an empty cavity then the alternatives - internal or external solid wall insulation are much more expensive/problematic.
Hope this helps someone.
Perhaps see what more can be coaxed out, seems a touch high... I'm sure others have been offered more free gas too.
Calor will know your useage and after topping you up once at 50ppl know the next time they top you up it will be a higher rate.
Personally I would suspend topups to regain some control to work to your advantage.
Also Calor can and will put the price up by more than any contract terms cos they know it will be too much hastle for you to move on...
Let us know how you get on.0 -
mindovermatter wrote: »Hi,
I am staggering from the latest price increase from Flogas putting my bulk LPG upto 75p per litre (78.75p inc VAT).
And we are paying about £100 extra per year for the tank!!!!!!!
Price has just gone up by another 6p litre.
I am not in contract as I do not want to commit to any company as I am very seriously considering swapping to Air Source or similar.
What are you paying for your bulk LPG? (I am in Devon).
Kind regards
Mindovermatter
I promised faithfully to update the thread with my current pricing, but have neglected to do so. I am in Central Scotland (only 15 miles from central Edinburgh so not that isolated!) and am with FloGas. At the end of last year I was being quoted 73ppl plus 18ppday maintenance. Due to the siting of my tank, I was forced into signing a 2 year contract with Flo. This took my price down to a "bargain" 51ppl fixed for 6 months, but with no cap on price or indeed potential increase after that. Flo told me on the phone that it wouldn't go up more than 8p in the next six months, however when I received the contract they denied this, and said that was just a guide. However, from reading this thread, that probably puts them in breach of the OFT guidelines as it would likely count as "unfettered price rises". I therefore signed a contract with my eyes open, so that if the price goes up an uncomfortable amount, I can use this as my get out clause. I am nearing the end of my 6 months so need to get a fill as soon as I can to maximise the fix. I am not even going to worry my head about the future price of crude, as Flo will not put the price down, I can guarantee that. So I need to fill up before they take the opportunity to rip me off even more than they already are!
All that said, I don't know what I would do if I wanted to get out of my contract, as apparently no-one will take me on anyway :mad:0% card was £1126.91 / Now £1502.37
AFD March 2/15 NSD March 2/11 :T
Other debts paid since 1/1/14: £17,0050 -
Flogas unfortunately do not have caps on their contracts, this is why even though they seem to be quoting fixed pricing for up to, 6,9,12 months this is worth nothing unless in writing, the only thing I can suggest most calls are recorded these days, write a complaint ask them to check call logs for the conversation regarding the verbal quote. You don't mention when you signed the contract or how much volume you take?
Regarding the siting of the tank, have you had an alternative company to come and give you advice? you may be able to force the termination on this basis because if they put it there? it should be compliant. The other option would be to put it right this would at least give you the flexibility to shop around every two years.
Other LPG companies do free of charge site surveys, it would cost you nothing to get their advice, Avantigas(formally Shell) Calor, J Gas and BP all cover ScotlandI promised faithfully to update the thread with my current pricing, but have neglected to do so. I am in Central Scotland (only 15 miles from central Edinburgh so not that isolated!) and am with FloGas. At the end of last year I was being quoted 73ppl plus 18ppday maintenance. Due to the siting of my tank, I was forced into signing a 2 year contract with Flo. This took my price down to a "bargain" 51ppl fixed for 6 months, but with no cap on price or indeed potential increase after that. Flo told me on the phone that it wouldn't go up more than 8p in the next six months, however when I received the contract they denied this, and said that was just a guide. However, from reading this thread, that probably puts them in breach of the OFT guidelines as it would likely count as "unfettered price rises". I therefore signed a contract with my eyes open, so that if the price goes up an uncomfortable amount, I can use this as my get out clause. I am nearing the end of my 6 months so need to get a fill as soon as I can to maximise the fix. I am not even going to worry my head about the future price of crude, as Flo will not put the price down, I can guarantee that. So I need to fill up before they take the opportunity to rip me off even more than they already are!
All that said, I don't know what I would do if I wanted to get out of my contract, as apparently no-one will take me on anyway :mad:0 -
<snip>
Due to the siting of my tank, I was forced into signing a 2 year contract with Flo. This took my price down to a "bargain" 51ppl fixed for 6 months, but with no cap on price or indeed potential increase after that. Flo told me on the phone that it wouldn't go up more than 8p in the next six months, however when I received the contract they denied this, and said that was just a guide. However, from reading this thread, that probably puts them in breach of the OFT guidelines as it would likely count as "unfettered price rises".
<snip>
Please send this to [EMAIL="sharon.dias@oft.gsi.gov.uk"]sharon.dias@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL]
As emailed to me by OFT on 21/11/11: [FONT="]Any concerns you may have about compliance with these Orders may be drawn to the attention of our Markets Policy and Remedies team by e-mailing [/FONT][FONT="][URL="blocked::mailto:sharon.dias@oft.gsi.gov.uk"][FONT="]sharon.dias@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/FONT][/URL][/FONT][FONT="]. The OFT is also, as noted in our study report, engaging with suppliers to seek, where necessary, improvement in the clarity of contract terms, particularly concerning cancellation and switching rights. [/FONT]0 -
Flogas unfortunately do not have caps on their contracts, this is why even though they seem to be quoting fixed pricing for up to, 6,9,12 months this is worth nothing unless in writing, the only thing I can suggest most calls are recorded these days, write a complaint ask them to check call logs for the conversation regarding the verbal quote. You don't mention when you signed the contract or how much volume you take?
Regarding the siting of the tank, have you had an alternative company to come and give you advice? you may be able to force the termination on this basis because if they put it there? it should be compliant. The other option would be to put it right this would at least give you the flexibility to shop around every two years.
Other LPG companies do free of charge site surveys, it would cost you nothing to get their advice, Avantigas(formally Shell) Calor, J Gas and BP all cover Scotland
Yes, it was JGas that told me it was illegally sited. Hence why I ended up having to sign another contract with Flo. I have tentatively raised the issue of the tank siting but am nervous they will then stop to fill me up! I'm not clear on who would be responsible for paying for a new tank positioning though?
Little Vermin, I will do that, thanks.0% card was £1126.91 / Now £1502.37
AFD March 2/15 NSD March 2/11 :T
Other debts paid since 1/1/14: £17,0050 -
Yes, it was JGas that told me it was illegally sited. Hence why I ended up having to sign another contract with Flo. I have tentatively raised the issue of the tank siting but am nervous they will then stop to fill me up! I'm not clear on who would be responsible for paying for a new tank positioning though?
This is becoming a hoary old chestnut!
The way I see it (maybe I'm wrong) is that your tank is either sited such that it is compliant with current regulations. Or it is not. Simple as that.
If it is not compliant (and its non-compliance is not in any way related to something you have done, overhanging foliage etc), then your existing supplier is supplying to a tank they should not be supplying to, and have not correctly maintained: I would consider that an essential part of any maintenance schedule is a safety assessment and an assessment of compliance to current standards (anyone with a British Gas Boiler service contract will be familiar with the annual "not to current standards" notifications). As such, if your tank has "mysteriously and suddenly" become non-compliant, I would say your existing supplier has to take at least a certain degree of liability for this, as they have patently failed to fulfil their "maintenance" contract. Of course, it's far easier (and better) for them simply to keep quiet and keep your business.
Believe it or not, there does also appear to me to be some confusion amongst suppliers as to exactly what the rules are (or perhaps, more fairly, how they should be interpreted). This was certainly my experience when I was last looking at changing supplier - perhaps if it's a marginal call, a more conservative salesman might err on the side of caution? However, regardless of this, the tank either is or is not compliant, according to the letter of the regulations.
I wonder if it might be worth calling a few bluffs and asking UKLPG to carry out an "Independent" assessment (bearing in mind that by and large UKLPG are responsible for developing the standards). If UKLPG give you a clean bill of health, then you should, in theory, be free to move wherever you like; If they condemn the installation, I think you would have a strong case to go after Flo and get them to pay at least some of the cost of remedial work.
One final note: while they may seem inexplicable to us, the regulations have been put together by people who understand the risks and dangers of LPG probably far better than anyone contributing to this forum. If under those regulations, your tank is considered to be a potential danger, you should probably want to get it sorted anyway, however much of a pain and expense that might be.0 -
One final note: while they may seem inexplicable to us, the regulations have been put together by people who understand the risks and dangers of LPG probably far better than anyone contributing to this forum. If under those regulations, your tank is considered to be a potential danger, you should probably want to get it sorted anyway, however much of a pain and expense that might be.
UKLPG's position to me seems a bit inconsistent between bulk domestic tanks (which sit there and do nothing but typically need 3m separation distance) and autogas vehicles (which can hurtle around at 70 mph+). I'd be intrigued to know what regulations around safety/separation distances apply to LPG in motor vehicles.0
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