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  • FIRST POST
    • shmy
    • By shmy 6th Apr 19, 4:57 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 3Thanks
    shmy
    Lots of PCNs Received from CEL !
    • #1
    • 6th Apr 19, 4:57 PM
    Lots of PCNs Received from CEL ! 6th Apr 19 at 4:57 PM
    Hi Guys

    I received multiple PCNs from CEL. I recently received court letters for one of them. And ive submitted an acknowledgement online for this PCN. Im struggling write out a defense because Ive misplaced the initial PCN, apparently I need the PCN to post online so somebody can help me write out a defense. So I will be making a SAR request. However, they can take up to 30 days to provide the information and this is way too long. Im worried I will not be able to write out a defense or a half descent defense at least. Anyhow I will make a request of 7 days

    I feel stuck. Im not sure what I can do. Maybe I should just pay up. Im not sure if I even have a leg to stand on to be honest HELP !!

    Anyway, here is my SAR request to CEL below




    Date: 06/04/19
    My address PCN Ref: Blank
    ..
    Data Protection Compliance Officer
    Claimants address
    ..

    Re: Subject Access Request - General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR)

    I am writing to formally make a Subject Access Request for a copy of all information about me to which I am entitled under the General Data Protection Regulations (2018). Where applicable, this should also include all information and correspondence relating to my vehicle Blank

    Please supply all the information about me which I am entitled to under Article 15 of the GDPR.

    Please note, you must comply with my Subject Access Request without undue delay and at the latest within 7 days of receipt. The time limit starts from the day after you received this request (whether the day after is a working day or not) until the corresponding calendar date in the next week.

    If you require any further information from me, to comply with my request, then you may contact me at the above address, by email Blank or by telephone on Blank
    Yours faithfully,


    Name
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Apr 19, 5:26 PM
    • 22,245 Posts
    • 28,131 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 6th Apr 19, 5:26 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Apr 19, 5:26 PM
    the time limit is 30 days , not 7 days , otherwise yes email the SAR to the CEL DPO asap

    as for a defence , read the ones in post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread , especially the ones by BARGEPOLE , and adapt one

    it is unlikely that you will receive the reply to the SAR in time , so the defence has to take account of this aspect by allowing for it

    and please note , there is no S in DEFENCE
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Apr 19, 5:49 PM
    • 23,080 Posts
    • 36,668 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 6th Apr 19, 5:49 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Apr 19, 5:49 PM
    I received multiple PCNs from CEL.
    How many have you received?

    How have you racked up so many?

    Roughly (month/year) what is the date on each ticket?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Apr 19, 6:34 PM
    • 14,345 Posts
    • 16,326 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #4
    • 6th Apr 19, 6:34 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Apr 19, 6:34 PM
    You say you have received a Claim Form.

    What is the Issue Date on your Claim Form?

    Did it come from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton, or from somewhere else?
    .
    • shmy
    • By shmy 8th Apr 19, 8:42 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    shmy
    • #5
    • 8th Apr 19, 8:42 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Apr 19, 8:42 PM
    as for a defence , read the ones in post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread , especially the ones by BARGEPOLE , and adapt one
    Thanks REDX I will certainly do the above. But Im unsure which defence would fit my incident or what grounds I have to appeal on? Also do you know CEL email address?

    Roughly (month/year) what is the date on each ticket?
    Umkomaas the first occurred on the 06/18, the second and third occurred on the 10/18 (days apart)
    for the 2nd and 3rd PCNs the payment machine was out of order. 3 in total.

    Did it come from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton, or from somewhere else?
    KeithP I have sent of the acknowledgment. I have up to the 22/04 to submit my defense. It came from Northampton
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Apr 19, 8:49 PM
    • 14,345 Posts
    • 16,326 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #6
    • 8th Apr 19, 8:49 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Apr 19, 8:49 PM
    Then without the Issue Date I will just say...


    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as suggested here:
    1. Print your Defence.
    2. Sign it and date it.
    3. Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4. Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5. Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    6. Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defence received". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
    7. Do not be surprised to receive a copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire, they are just trying to put you under pressure.
    8. Wait for your DQ from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.
    .
    • shmy
    • By shmy 8th Apr 19, 11:01 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    shmy
    • #7
    • 8th Apr 19, 11:01 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Apr 19, 11:01 PM
    Issue date 20 Mar 2019
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Apr 19, 11:10 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,989 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 8th Apr 19, 11:10 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Apr 19, 11:10 PM
    But Im unsure which defence would fit my incident or what grounds I have to appeal on?
    It's NOT an appeal. Why are you asking? You've been advised to use bargepole's version as your base, like everyone does, then just add your facts (why not read some other claim/defence threads and see how other newbies handled that)?

    It is really easy once you start.

    Also do you know CEL email address?
    Again, why? You are not sending a defence to CEL, and if you mean an address for a SAR, the NEWBIES thread tells you exactly how to find the DPO email addy of any PPC, by Googling two acronyms.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Apr 19, 11:29 PM
    • 14,345 Posts
    • 16,326 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 8th Apr 19, 11:29 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Apr 19, 11:29 PM
    Issue date 20 Mar 2019
    Originally posted by shmy
    Yes, you are almost right with your Defence filing date.

    With a Claim Issue Date of 20th March, and having done the Acknowledgement of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Tuesday 23rd April 2019 to file your Defence.

    That's nearly two weeks away. Loads of time to produce a good Defence, but don't leave it to the very last minute.
    Last edited by KeithP; 16-04-2019 at 2:39 PM.
    .
    • shmy
    • By shmy 15th Apr 19, 10:24 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    shmy
    Hi guys

    Thank-you for all the information so far.

    Im struggling to find a suitable defence to tailor. Can I post/send some images of the car park in question? In the hope that somebody can point me towards a defence.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th Apr 19, 10:31 PM
    • 14,345 Posts
    • 16,326 Thanks
    KeithP
    There are several examples of Defences linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES thread*.

    In particular, look at those concise Defences written by bargepole, but Redx suggested that in the first reply you received.

    It's really difficult to be more specific as you have told us absolutely nothing about the alleged parking incidents.


    *there is a link to that thread in one of my earlier posts.
    Last edited by KeithP; 15-04-2019 at 11:03 PM.
    .
    • shmy
    • By shmy 15th Apr 19, 11:12 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    shmy
    Okay, I will have a better look in the newbies thread and bargepole with link provided.

    How can informing your local MP help?
    Last edited by shmy; 15-04-2019 at 11:55 PM.
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 16th Apr 19, 8:51 AM
    • 4,624 Posts
    • 3,999 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Go HERE and scroll down until you see: -

    Here are some cases won or in progress:

    Here is a defence I suggested for a case where a RingGo app carried forward a default VRN for the wrong car, so that the driver was not at fault and the inaccuracy came from the PPC's app:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74836178#post74836178
    ................then keep scrolling to find more defences for different scenarios
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th Apr 19, 2:41 PM
    • 14,345 Posts
    • 16,326 Thanks
    KeithP
    I've just edited post #9 above to correct your Defence filing date to:
    ...you have until 4pm on Tuesday 23rd April 2019 to file your Defence.
    This is because Monday 22nd April is a Bank Holiday.

    You can now spend the whole of Easter weekend working on it.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 19, 12:20 AM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,989 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    In the hope that somebody can point me towards a defence.
    You already were:
    as for a defence , read the ones in post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread , especially the ones by BARGEPOLE , and adapt one
    Originally posted by Redx
    Then I added:
    You've been advised to use bargepole's version as your base, like everyone does, then just add your facts (why not read some other claim/defence threads and see how other newbies handled that)?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • shmy
    • By shmy 22nd Apr 19, 7:06 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    shmy
    Hi Guys

    Over the weekend I have been looking through many threads and defences for my information.

    Below is my defence please can you guys have a look and shed some light. I know its close to the deadline in fact its tomorrow at 4 pm!. Apologies for this!

    My main argument will be the poor condition the car park is in. The parking lines are very faded and barley noticeable, huge pot holes all around. Its clearly not up to standard ! Am i right on this? Thats the reason I picked this defence and added a little extra to make mention of the condition.

    Also, Ive noticed on my other PCNs from CEL the address shown of the carpark in question shows up as another car park a few blocks away on google. However the sign at the car park shows the same name and address as on the PCN. Is this something that can work in my favor if outside the ordinary?

    In The County Court
    Claim No: Presented on the court letter
    Between
    Civil Enforcement Ltd (Claimant)

    -and-

    My Name (Defendant)

    ____________
    DEFENCE
    ____________

    1. The Defendant was the registered keeper and driver of vehicle registration number XXXXXXX on the material date. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts of the matter is The ‘land’ which forms the basis of the current claim consists of a relatively large number of poorly marked ‘private land’ parking spaces. Given this lack of clarity regarding how or where the driver can park in this car park, no contract can be construed from the Claimant's signage, under the contra proferentem principle.

    3. Due to the lack of maintenance the parking surface is badly damaged, unsafe and a potential hazard.

    4. Due to the lack of facts, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or the driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct. Accordingly, it is denied that the Defendant breached any of the Claimant's purported contractual terms, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    5. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient interest in the land or that there are specific terms in its contract to bring an action on its own behalf. As a third party agent, the Claimant may not pursue any charge, unless specifically authorised by the principal. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant does not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name, and that they have no right to bring any action regarding this claim.

    6. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred 67 costs to pursue an alleged 100 debt. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, in Schedule 4, Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case 100.

    7. The Defendant disputes that the Claimant has incurred 50 solicitor costs as no evidence provided.

    8. In summary, the Claimant's particulars disclose no legal basis for the sum claimed, and the Court is invited to dismiss the claim in its entirety.

    Statement of Truth:

    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date
    Last edited by shmy; 22-04-2019 at 8:34 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Apr 19, 8:31 PM
    • 23,080 Posts
    • 36,668 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    If the three parking tickets were overstay/no payment ones via ANPR capture, there will be no ‘penalty’ attaching to anything to do with a badly delineated car park (or potholes), the driver was aware of these on entry, yet still decided to park. I don’t think a defence based around those is going to help you.

    You need to expand the ‘Signage’ section to question the signage content and whether that can form a contract.

    Have you studied other recent CEL defences and copied appropriate sections from them. Do a forum search on keywords CEL Defence’ and read some of those.

    HOW TO USE THE FORUM SEARCH FUNCTION:

    Hit your 'Back' button to get back to the forum thread list. On the bar just above the threads you'll see the 'Search' function. Click on the 'Advanced Search' button and on the following page place your keyword(s) in the 'Search By Keyword(s)' and make sure the 'Show Results As' button (at the foot of the window) is changed from 'Threads' to 'Posts'.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Apr 19, 8:39 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,989 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    for the 2nd and 3rd PCNs the payment machine was out of order. 3 in total.
    But is this defence just for the first one, as they've only issued a claim for that one so far? So what happened and how long was the car there, just 12 minutes or something, caught by ANPR, or why did the driver not pay at the machine that time if they actually stopped and parked?

    Your defence doesn't explain it.

    ''poorly marked ‘private land’ parking spaces'' has not relevance if this was for non-payment.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • shmy
    • By shmy 22nd Apr 19, 9:04 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    shmy
    You need to expand the ‘Signage’ section to question the signage content and whether that can form a contract.
    Im not sure if there is anything wrong with the signage at this car park, or any areas to exploit regarding the signage.

    But is this defence just for the first one, as they've only issued a claim for that one so far? So what happened and how long was the car there, just 12 minutes or something, caught by ANPR, or why did the driver not pay at the machine that time if they actually stopped and parked?
    This defence is for the first one.
    It was a while ago, but from what I can recall I overstayed at the car park after paying for an hour only.
    I entered the car park at 15:42 and exited at 16:59. So thats 12 mins of overstay (I think) driver caught by ANPR.
    How shall I put this in writing? im really worried I have to submit this by tomorrow!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Apr 19, 9:58 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,989 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I entered the car park at 15:42 and exited at 16:59. So that's 12 mins of overstay (I think) driver caught by ANPR.
    Whoa I must be psychic! I asked:
    How long was the car there, just 12 minutes or something
    I am amazed you haven't read enough (or simply checked the BPA Code of Practice to catch the scammers out) to realise you were covered by the mandatory BPA grace periods and need to include that in your defence! The fact that the driver paid for the hour parked, and the other minutes either side were not parking time but in moving traffic and fully covered by the mandatory grace periods either side of paid-for time.

    Please use these search terms to find the sort of defence you needed to read:

    BPA grace periods PDT machine defence true

    One of the results would be the defence by Theopop, a thread I've just replied on so it's back at the top of the forum, as I type.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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