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  • FIRST POST
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 14th Jun 19, 3:03 PM
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    Adams18
    Complicated Probate case... sigh
    • #1
    • 14th Jun 19, 3:03 PM
    Complicated Probate case... sigh 14th Jun 19 at 3:03 PM
    Hello,

    I've posted in another forum about this situation, but from a different angle regarding the assets. Thread title "Inherited Mortgage due to mature... options?"

    I live in a family home with my mother who owns 75%. The other 25% used to be owned by my father who passed away two years ago. He also owned the mortgage which is outstanding.

    He did have a partner (not legal wife) at time of death who is not my mother.

    This partner has laid claim to the 25%, however this 25% is held in a special "trust" and is only accessible in the the triggering events that my mother (75% owned) dies, remarries or the lender forces sale of the property if mortgage is not paid. The partner has laid claim under the 1975 dependents act.

    But theoretically speaking the 25% does not form part of the estate of my father, nor does it hold any nominal value as it can't be accessed, not even by myself as the heir.

    It's so ridiculously confusing, I've been stressing for two years over it and the mortgage is due to be paid soon on the property.

    He had nothing else in his estate other than the 25% which is a charge back to him in the event of triggering events explained above.

    Is worth me doing probate? To speak to the land registry about ownership for the beneficial interest? And to speak to the mortgage lender? About paying the mortgage? Or will the lender just accept money from anyone as long as it gets cleared?
    Last edited by Adams18; 14-06-2019 at 3:05 PM.
Page 3
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 3:54 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    If you did a documented loan to your mother of the money needed to clear the mortgage, wouldn't that protect your money?
    Originally posted by Mojisola

    Well something to that effect, I hope, would protect my money. But I figure probate will clear this up, as his debt is my responsibility at that point as the executor of his estate, I should be able to work something out with them in paying the money from my account and they giving me confirmation of the account being closed.

    I am the successor after all, his son. They should share all account details with me.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Jun 19, 4:00 PM
    • 37,376 Posts
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    getmore4less
    And how can I do that
    Originally posted by Adams18
    Pick one and only post on that directing the other thread to that one
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 4:05 PM
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    Adams18
    That was just a summary of what you have said in previous post taken to the next stage of realising the beneficial interest in the property.

    What the partner may have worked out is that if they wait and you pay off the mortgage they potentially get more money into the estate to have a claim over(25% of the mortgage)



    No ideas what that is all about but don't have access to the docs.

    Anyway

    what I was saying is now there is nothing stopping the grant get one buy out the beneficial interest of the estate and separate the house from the estate.

    Then argue who inherits from the estate once you have the grant the partner would need to instigate the proceeding.
    Will they be able to afford it.

    Caveats are relatively cheap, chances are the partner has finally realised that any claim would be costly and probably fail so are backing off.


    note : the beneficial interest into the estate does not have to be real cash until someone claims it as the default beneficiary will be children(you and any siblings) you will only need enough initially to cover the siblings shares, if a claim succeeds then amount of the claim
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    What the partner may have worked out is that if they wait and you pay off the mortgage they potentially get more money into the estate to have a claim over(25% of the mortgage)


    Yeah thats true. But now that I have informed her of the situation with the court order, I am hoping the partner drops the claim.

    what I was saying is now there is nothing stopping the grant get one buy out the beneficial interest of the estate and separate the house from the estate.

    How does one buy out the interest and do this? Sorry I am very new to all this.

    Then argue who inherits from the estate once you have the grant the partner would need to instigate the proceeding.
    Will they be able to afford it.


    I highly doubt partner could afford it, she couldnt afford mediation costs for us to meet and negotiate. I defo can't afford court costs at 20K.

    Caveats are relatively cheap, chances are the partner has finally realised that any claim would be costly and probably fail so are backing off.

    They are 20 pounds to make, 300 pounds for a solicitor to do it for you even if it takes 5 minutes, and a hell of a lot more to remove if caveat is made permanent. Which is all what I went through.

    I think ill do probate, let land registry know I am the successor to the 25% and then deal with the claim from there and buy some time from the lender to see if claimaint drops this case or how far she is willing to go. I know she cannot afford much at all, but have no idea about her fee arrangement with her solicitor.. like a commision if she wins based on strength of her case, solicitor might have been promised large chunk.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 4:06 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    Pick one and only post on that directing the other thread to that one
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Okay, will do.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 15th Jun 19, 4:39 PM
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    Manxman in exile
    I'm probably being thick again, but it seems to be:


    1. house worth c. £500 you and your mother live in. (Mum owned 75% outright, dad had 25% beneficial interest)


    2. £80k outstanding on mortgage (although you haven't told lender that father is dead)


    3. Father's partner may have a dependents claim against father's 25%


    4. You can afford to pay off the mortgage, but are reluctant to do so, but you also don't want house to be repossessed.


    As others have suggested, you get probate/letters of administration, you pay off the mortgage and then you worry about the claim from your dad's partner and either settle or let a court decide it. Otherwise you're in danger of losing the house(?!).


    (If it's an interest only mortgage, I assume the £80k refers to the capital repayment?)
    Last edited by Manxman in exile; 15-06-2019 at 4:42 PM. Reason: delete repetition
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 4:49 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    I'm probably being thick again, but it seems to be:


    1. house worth c. £500 you and your mother live in. (Mum owned 75% outright, dad had 25% beneficial interest)


    2. £80k outstanding on mortgage (although you haven't told lender that father is dead)


    3. Father's partner may have a dependents claim against father's 25%


    4. You can afford to pay off the mortgage, but are reluctant to do so, but you also don't want house to be repossessed.


    As others have suggested, you get probate/letters of administration, you pay off the mortgage and then you worry about the claim from your dad's partner and either settle or let a court decide it. Otherwise you're in danger of losing the house(?!).


    (If it's an interest only mortgage, I assume the £80k refers to the capital repayment?)
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    Correct on all accounts, interest only, 80K capital payment.

    Yeah either lose house keep 80k in pocket, and collect 75% of net proceeds, or pay 80k keep house and deal with claim from claimaint and hope for the best.

    I personally don't feel I owe that person anything. But if it goes to court, a judge can decide. Right now, its her solicitor versus my solicitor standing their ground. No one wants court... its 20k for proceedings!
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 15th Jun 19, 5:07 PM
    • 2,588 Posts
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    Sea Shell
    Have you downloaded or read Santander's Bereavement Guide?
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 5:10 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    Have you downloaded or read Santander's Bereavement Guide?
    Originally posted by Sea Shell

    Yep a while back, get probate and then speak to them about the bereavement they say... we'll "understand" that it may take you time to get settled at this difficult time.

    When I read a lender say "we'll understand"... it's more like,.... Do tell us if circumstances change so we can close your account and take our money to minimise risk for us.

    They have their own interests at heart.

    "We'll understand" = Ohhhhh so the mortgage owner has died, how awful... brb..."suzie close this acount immediaely... these guys can;t pay
    • Marcon
    • By Marcon 15th Jun 19, 5:13 PM
    • 1,263 Posts
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    Marcon
    I am looking for a fresh perspective here. It either comes or doesn't come, it's free to try as I've exhausted legal advise and spent a fortune.
    Originally posted by Adams18
    It's hard to understand why the matter hasn't progressed and with so little to go on, impossible to comment on what's gone wrong - but something has. This is hardly a rocket science problem to a lawyer used to dealing with such matters.

    If you haven't yet made a formal complaint, I suggest you do so now - it might actually get some action which would resolve things.
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 15th Jun 19, 5:15 PM
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    Sea Shell
    Effectively is your father's estate in negative equity? His 25% is worth less than the outstanding £80k mortgage.

    You inherit this negative equity, but you have the means to pay off the mortgage, in a similar way that a life insurance would have paid it off.

    You inherit his 25%, with its caveats (by this I mean trigger events) still in place.

    Surely there are no assets left in the estate for the partner to claim a percentage of.
    Last edited by Sea Shell; 15-06-2019 at 7:12 PM.
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 15th Jun 19, 5:28 PM
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    Manxman in exile
    Correct on all accounts, interest only, 80K capital payment.

    Yeah either lose house keep 80k in pocket, and collect 75% of net proceeds, or pay 80k keep house and deal with claim from claimaint and hope for the best.

    I personally don't feel I owe that person anything. But if it goes to court, a judge can decide. Right now, its her solicitor versus my solicitor standing their ground. No one wants court... its 20k for proceedings!
    Originally posted by Adams18

    I know it may seem like that if you are coughing up the 80k, but in reality, it's a claim against your dad's estate (albeit comes out of his/your 25%).


    Re Sea Shell #50, is your dad's estate insolvent apart from the 25% in the house, and did he have any other debts? I'm just wondering (I certainly don't know!) whether there may be any creditors that may also have a claim on the 25%.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Jun 19, 5:37 PM
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    getmore4less
    The caveat has made the problem.

    Intestate with caveat no one can get a grant.

    Mortgage in deceased name only needs grant.

    There must be something on the register since the land reg won't proceed without a grant.
    • MovingForwards
    • By MovingForwards 15th Jun 19, 5:43 PM
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    MovingForwards
    An advert in the law gazette and a local paper to where his dad lived will reveal any other unknown debts, especially if the partner doesn't disclose any.

    I assume OP has his dad's papers from the paper so can go through them and establish any debts.

    As pointed out in £80k comes off the 25% value at the date of death of the property, I would suggest getting it revalued again by the guy who did it 6m after your dad died.

    The cost of the funeral, wake and probate application with associated fees also comes out the estate.

    Starting to look like the pot the partner is chasing is a lot smaller than she thought...

    Make sure you screen print the comments from the other thread, and this one, as guidance just in case one accidentally gets deleted!

    Hopefully, you are now confident this can get unraveled
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Jun 19, 6:04 PM
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    getmore4less
    It is looking like the 25% is after 80k paid off so only 20k off the 25% share.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 15th Jun 19, 7:50 PM
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    xylophone
    I definitely dealt with his bank accounts, and closed them, even though several thousand were siphened off his bank account following his death, I reclaimed the money via fraud/police
    The banks were happy to allow you to deal with your father's affairs even though you have not applied to be the PR?

    Was the house originally wholly owned by your mother but she permitted your father to borrow £80,000 using the property as security?

    The divorce settlement allowed him 25% of the value of the property on your mother's death or re-marriage?


    For the past two years you have been using this money to pay the interest owed by your father? Or you are holding the money in a separate account to meet (partially) the repayment of the £80,000?
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 15th Jun 19, 8:47 PM
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    Manxman in exile
    I didn't understand the bit about thousands being siphoned out and being recovered with the aid of the police.?


    Is it relevant here?


    EDIT: I mean the mention by the OP, not the reference by xylophone
    Last edited by Manxman in exile; 15-06-2019 at 9:06 PM. Reason: clarification
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 9:47 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    Effectively is your father's estate in negative equity? His 25% is worth less than the outstanding £80k mortgage.

    You inherit this negative equity, but you have the means to pay off the mortgage, in a similar way that a life insurance would have paid it off.

    You inherit his 25%, with its caveats (by this I mean trigger events) still in place.

    Surely there are no assets left in the estate for the partner to claim a percentage of.
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    Yes, and that is what I've just explained to her, the claimant... she doesn't know yet what I intend to do with the mortgage however. If I pay it off, than it's no longer in negative equity, and I'm out of pocket by 80k.

    I'll have inherited whatever comes to the estate in the future, pending a claim by the claimant.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 9:50 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    I know it may seem like that if you are coughing up the 80k, but in reality, it's a claim against your dad's estate (albeit comes out of his/your 25%).


    Re Sea Shell #50, is your dad's estate insolvent apart from the 25% in the house, and did he have any other debts? I'm just wondering (I certainly don't know!) whether there may be any creditors that may also have a claim on the 25%.
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    I have no clue if he had any other debts I doubt it, but the claimant has all his documentation, I have nothing. I've just been checking his medical records, and bank statements for the past 6 years before he died. I know he had a credit card with PPI, but thats since been settled/ dealt with the insurer and the bank.

    I'd have to do probate and place ad in the gazette to find out... but he has no other assets except for a few thousand in his bank when I closed it.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 9:59 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    The caveat has made the problem.

    Intestate with caveat no one can get a grant.

    Mortgage in deceased name only needs grant.

    There must be something on the register since the land reg won't proceed without a grant.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Yeah it did cause a huge problem, when I first got a letter from claimant saying " I am the wife, how do you intend to settle the 25% of the property to me" I panicked.. I had to investigate if she was really the wife.

    Solicitor instructed me to do a caveat to buy me time and prevent anyone doing anything with the estate

    , I did it, and she made an appearance on the cavear... and then caveat was made permanent by the country court removable only by court order.

    We were able to remove his name as legal owner at the land registry, but there is a restriction on the property because it is tenants in common, so it prevents the other beneficial interest owner (my mother) from trying to sell or circumvent the 25% that does not belong to her.

    It's called Form A restriction: The purpose of the restriction is to ensure that, on the death of one proprietor, the property cannot automatically be sold by the survivor on his own (which could circumvent the rights of the beneficiaries of the deceasedís Will). A Ďreplacement trusteeí needs to be appointed to step into the shoes of the deceased and be a party to any transfer alongside the surviving proprietor. If the survivor is entitled to the deceasedís share, in accordance with the terms of the deceasedís Will, the restriction can be removed from the register by supplying a death certificate and a statement from the remaining registered owner showing he is solely entitled both to the legal and the beneficial estate in the property.

    So I apply for probate, land registry should be happy I am the inheritor, and then the claimant can perhaps pursue a halt of sale in order to prevent distribution of proceeds, given her outstanding claim under 1975 act.

    It would be for her to bring the claim forward in court.
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 15th Jun 19, 10:01 PM
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    theoretica
    So at the moment, you have a house worth £500k with claims against it for £80k by the bank and up to £105k by the partner - and complications about who can access what, when.



    The bank are going to get their £80k - they can get it the easy way by you paying it, or they can get it the hard way by repossessing. If they repossess they would have charges and little motivation to get the very best price so this would probably be a financially poor decision - you and your mother could well lose lot of money going that route.


    Is the partner claiming the whole or a portion of your father's estate?
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
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