Unpaid Nursing Home fees after death - who is liable?
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ratty67
Posts: 228 Forumite
My DH is executor to the will of a lady who passed away at the end of February.
She spent her last few years in a nursing home with dementia. She had little in the way of savings and therefore social services were contributing to her care, she was contributing her state pension and small private pension less the personal allowance.
From what has been uncovered so far there were two bank accounts, one in her name only (savings) and one in joint names with her only daughter. As far as we know her daughter was the elderly lady's Appointee and there was no EPA.
The joint account is the one her state pension and private pension were being paid into and the one the care home fees were coming out from.
There is an outstanding bill of just over £1,700. The social services have been helpful and told my DH that the money was being paid to them via direct debit but after payment became hit-and-miss they put the daughter onto a payment plan.
Now the lady has passed on the daughter has handed the bill over and wishes the estate to settle it. Is the estate liable for this? The savings account barely has enough money in it to cover the funeral!
The social services are sending out records of payments made and the bank is sending statements for both accounts - the joint account statements obviously only up until the date of the lady's demise.
Any help is much appreciated, DH is trying very hard not to involve the solicitor as that will cost money the estate frankly doesn't have.
She spent her last few years in a nursing home with dementia. She had little in the way of savings and therefore social services were contributing to her care, she was contributing her state pension and small private pension less the personal allowance.
From what has been uncovered so far there were two bank accounts, one in her name only (savings) and one in joint names with her only daughter. As far as we know her daughter was the elderly lady's Appointee and there was no EPA.
The joint account is the one her state pension and private pension were being paid into and the one the care home fees were coming out from.
There is an outstanding bill of just over £1,700. The social services have been helpful and told my DH that the money was being paid to them via direct debit but after payment became hit-and-miss they put the daughter onto a payment plan.
Now the lady has passed on the daughter has handed the bill over and wishes the estate to settle it. Is the estate liable for this? The savings account barely has enough money in it to cover the funeral!
The social services are sending out records of payments made and the bank is sending statements for both accounts - the joint account statements obviously only up until the date of the lady's demise.
Any help is much appreciated, DH is trying very hard not to involve the solicitor as that will cost money the estate frankly doesn't have.
Sealed Pot #418 ('09 £414.12) ('10 £550.90) ('11 £440.60)
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The local authority should have funded all the care home fees shortfall after pensions and attendance allowance had been used, once the ladies savings dropped below c £12k. Ask the Local Authority to do a retrospective financial assessment. Don't pay the bill until they complete it.
The lady should also have been eligible for high rate of attendance allowance - was she getting it ?.................
....I'm smiling because I have no idea what's going on ...:)0 -
The lady had income of a small personal pension and her state pension ONLY as far as we can tell. There's certainly no mention of Attendance Allowance on the info received from Social Services.
The shortfall between the nursing home cost and her contribution was made by SS (around £104 per week). The Social Services were paying the home in full every 4 weeks (in arrears) and the lady's contribution was supposed to be paid by direct debit to the Social Services, again every 4 weeks.
The debt has arisen because the lady's representitive/Appointee first stopped the direct debit and then failed to consistently adhere to the payment plan. The payments should have been coming from the joint bank account (the now deceased and the Appointee).
The question is, does the estate have to settle the bill or should it be down to the Appointee who has clearly had the money at her disposal but has failed to carry out her duties?
If the estate has to settle the bill the estate will become insolvent.Sealed Pot #418 ('09 £414.12) ('10 £550.90) ('11 £440.60)0 -
The lady had income of a small personal pension and her state pension ONLY as far as we can tell. There's certainly no mention of Attendance Allowance on the info received from Social Services.
The shortfall between the nursing home cost and her contribution was made by SS (around £104 per week). The Social Services were paying the home in full every 4 weeks (in arrears) and the lady's contribution was supposed to be paid by direct debit to the Social Services, again every 4 weeks.
The debt has arisen because the lady's representitive/Appointee first stopped the direct debit and then failed to consistently adhere to the payment plan. The payments should have been coming from the joint bank account (the now deceased and the Appointee).
The question is, does the estate have to settle the bill or should it be down to the Appointee who has clearly had the money at her disposal but has failed to carry out her duties?
If the estate has to settle the bill the estate will become insolvent.
Are you saying that the Lady's pension was still being paid into the joint bank account and it was supposed to be used for her contribution to the nursing home fees? Because if the lady's pension was being spent by the appointee, then surely it is down to the appointee to return the money and clear the debt0 -
Are you saying that the Lady's pension was still being paid into the joint bank account and it was supposed to be used for her contribution to the nursing home fees? Because if the lady's pension was being spent by the appointee, then surely it is down to the appointee to return the money and clear the debt
Yes, that's what it looks like has been happening. It doesn't help that the appointee now doesn't answer her home phone, mobile or respond to letters :mad:
I'm sorry if it looks like a really stupid question but we need to be 100% positive that the estate is not liable as executors can become liable themselves if debts are not paid correctly.Sealed Pot #418 ('09 £414.12) ('10 £550.90) ('11 £440.60)0 -
Right, I'm with you now. The lady's daughter has been helping herself to her mum's money by the sound of things. Three ways to go on this: inform the police of the theft; inform Social Services they have deliberately and wilfully allowed an older person to be financially abused; speak to Action on Elder Abuse (google for phone number) and talk it through and ask for guidance.
Estates can sometimes take some considerable time to settle as the executors need to call in all the assets (in this case the missing pension money) before they can settle the debts.
HTH.....................I'm smiling because I have no idea what's going on ...:)0 -
as it was a joint account though, does that still make it theft? Im wondering if that makes the money in there a joint asset but Im not sure0
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I think it's pretty obvious that it is theft - proving it may be difficult but perhaps not impossible.
If the daughter is the beneficiary of what appears to be a small estate, I would be tempted if I were executor to take legal advice which would be charged to the estate and might result in the beneficiary finishing up with a fiver ! But that's just me - I hate relatives who rip off older people......................I'm smiling because I have no idea what's going on ...:)0 -
I've looked up this old thread and in particular post number 6.
For tax purposes:
So if the funds in the account originated solely from the deceased, wouldn't the amount spent by daughter count as a gift and therefore deprivation of assets? If so would the LA retrieve the funds from daughter first? I really don't know but just throwing some ideas around.Where a bank account was totally funded by the deceased, and had simply been put in joint accounts for administrative purposes and convenience, the account will be deemed to be owned by the deceased.
Questions will potentially arise as to an element of gift on opening of the account, and it's also possible that the revenue might argue that the reservation of benefit rules apply to the gift.0 -
If the daughter is the beneficiary of what appears to be a small estate, I would be tempted if I were executor to take legal advice which would be charged to the estate and might result in the beneficiary finishing up with a fiver ! But that's just me - I hate relatives who rip off older people.
Joint accounts pass outside of a Will.I get the impression OP doesn't think there is even enough in both accounts to cover known bills.
The probate helpline should be able to offer some free support.0 -
sloughflint wrote: »Joint accounts pass outside of a Will.
The probate helpline should be able to offer some free support.
Understood, DH is aware that joint accounts bypass the will.
Interestingly although not surprisingly given what appears to have happened, the daughter was not in the will. The money was to go to the adult grandchildren. Looks like the daughter found the perfect way to benefit hey?
At the time the will was made the lady was of sound mind and very clear in her reasons as to why her daughter should not inherit. Unfortunately she was also financially clueless so may not have had any clear idea what she was signing at the bank when the joint account was opened.
We find it hard to believe that a lady who was adamant her daughter inherited nothing would have signed something that gave her daughter her money upon death. Daughter even took her back to the solicitors in an attempt to make her change her will. Luckily the solicitor saw through it.
It's all leaving a very nasty taste in my mouth.Sealed Pot #418 ('09 £414.12) ('10 £550.90) ('11 £440.60)0
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