Electric cars

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  • RichardD1970
    RichardD1970 Posts: 3,795 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    only 1.4% of the population could plug in, I asked you if the figure was only 1.4%, and you told me to do the maths regarding the percentage of BEV's sold.

    No, the figure for those who can plug in at home isn't 1.4%, I have no idea what they are, but I never said it was and don't know why you were asking me?

    I was on about the current sales of BEV, no idea what you were on about.

    Don't know what you think I am trying to spin, I'm all for BEVs and would have one if possible, as stated numerous times.

    I also didn't "go off on one", just pointed out that Tesla aren't "doing it all themselves", didn't slag them off or defend other companies, or mentioned their individual production figures, just pointed out that it is not just Tesla, and yes BEV sales are comparatively small.

    A lot of people will discount BEV simply because of the (real or imagined) problems with charging, to dismiss that as a mute point is rather silly and counter productive.

    You really need calm down and stop jumping down people throats when you think they are "dissing" Tesla and try to debate/discuss without all the hyperbole.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    edited 22 April 2019 at 7:45AM
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    RichardD1970 wrote: »
    No, the figure for those who can plug in at home isn't 1.4%, I have no idea what they are, but I never said it was and don't know why you were asking me?

    I was on about the current sales of BEV, no idea what you were on about.

    Don't know what you think I am trying to spin, I'm all for BEVs and would have one if possible, as stated numerous times.

    I also didn't "go off on one", just pointed out that Tesla aren't "doing it all themselves", didn't slag them off or defend other companies, or mentioned their individual production figures, just pointed out that it is not just Tesla, and yes BEV sales are comparatively small.

    A lot of people will discount BEV simply because of the (real or imagined) problems with charging, to dismiss that as a mute point is rather silly and counter productive.

    You really need calm down and stop jumping down people throats when you think they are "dissing" Tesla and try to debate/discuss without all the hyperbole.

    Weird!

    I was trying to discuss the potential size of the market and it being far larger than 1.4%, something I've said now several times, yet you've tried to imply I said something different, and are now saying you have no idea why I asked you - isn't it something you are interested in, like myself and appears in context with the discussion and comments (including yours) at the time. So I too was talking about the current market, and openly accepted your 1.4% figure as a baseline for potential expansion.

    So I make a simple statement about Tesla not being able to do it on their own, the need to act regarding AGW, and ask you for your thoughts, and what do I get:

    Multiple posts from you 'having a go' again, simply because (I assume) I'd said something positive about Tesla.
    Implying I said something about you that I didn't.
    Nonsense comments about AGW simply to disagree, which you dug in with ever more nonsense.
    At least three posts with you 'F'ing' at at least three of us.
    And now you say I need to calm down.

    I'm calm mate, very calm. Any time you want to have a sensible and polite and reasonable chat, I'm your man. It's a very interesting subject, it's the beginning of a massive change in transportation, and a viable (tech, cost and demand/desire exist) solution for that sectors AGW's contribution.

    So, can we talk, I'm bored of having to fend off your nonsense. I tried to start a chat last time you went off on one, but you'd flounced off again and appeared to decline my invitation:
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    So if you want to chat, great, much appreciated, and I hope I don't bore you too much. But if you want to attack me, rather than engage me on these subjects then that's your choice, but if you jump into the middle of Ade/Mart silliness, then don't expect me to agree with you.

    Maybe this time we can chat about EV's, and perhaps Tesla dominant position (at the moment) being a fact, not fanboi'ism. If we can't accept that one company is leading the charge (a simple fact) then how can we chat about EV's ...... it's all about context.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    edited 22 April 2019 at 7:44AM
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    AdrianC wrote: »
    I'm not sure looking at the entirety of the global market is terribly useful. There's a heck of a lot of vehicles sold in developing-world markets which are low-tech, low-cost.

    Perhaps looking at the major developed-world markets would make more sense? In fact, why not just look at the EU/EFTA?

    https://www.best-selling-cars.com/electric/latest-europe-electric-and-plug-in-hybrid-car-sales-per-eu-and-efta-country/

    15.6m cars registered in 2018 - 0% change on 2017

    1.3% BEV - +48.2%
    1.2% PHEV - +19.2%
    3.9% "hybrid" inc PHEV, so 2.7% nPHEV - +33%
    56% petrol - +12.4%
    35% diesel - -18%

    So IC-only vehicles as a whole were down a bit, from 93% to 90% of the total market. But the only loss was diesels.
    Petrol cars, though, were up by nearly one extra car for every eight sold.
    Just the increase alone in petrol car sales was almost three cars for each electrically-chargeable vehicle sold in total.
    For each single diesel sale that moved to plug-in, ten went to petrol.

    Look at the break-down by country, and there's nine countries that more than doubled sales. But eight of those had sold <100 cars in 2017.

    Yep. I think we are all agreed that the market for EV's is massive, so as good EV's arrive (price, tech and customer needs & wants seem to now being matched) we can expect massive growth going forward.

    What we now need is a massive ramp up of BEV production by all manufacturers, Tesla can't do this on their own.

    Edit - speaking of which, yet more evidence that VW is serious about building BEV's (not just concept cars), which is excellent news.

    Volkswagen Electric Car Policy Push — More Fully Electric Cars (Small Ones), Fewer PHEVs
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • silverwhistle
    silverwhistle Posts: 3,791 Forumite
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    Martyn, back off for once, I don't think Richard is an Adrian, IYSWIM.


    As for the market and potential demand, we'll see when Kia and Hyundai et al. don't have waiting lists and start to bring their prices down..
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    edited 23 April 2019 at 8:14AM
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    silverwhistle wrote: »
    Martyn, back off for once, I don't think Richard is an Adrian, IYSWIM.

    I agree. Not malicious just overly sensitive to anything that might be considered Tesla praise. It's a difficult balance on here as it's hard to discuss EV's without mentioning Tesla (at the moment) but I assume that'll settle down as other companies ramp up production, which looks ever more likely, and ever sooner.

    For the sake of the thread, despite not believing it, I'm happy to reverse my controversial statement and say 'Tesla can do it on their own.' ;)

    silverwhistle wrote: »
    As for the market and potential demand, we'll see when Kia and Hyundai et al. don't have waiting lists and start to bring their prices down..

    Perhaps I'm being too optimistic (as usual) but I suspect we are now moving past compliance vehicles, and trying to just make a show of EV interest, to a point where all the big manufacturers are taking the issue very seriously.

    Do you think they've now accepted that EV's, even BEV's are now a done deal as the future of cars? IMO the size of the market and potential demand should only really be considered as 100%.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    Disclaimer, I haven't actually read this, I just chuckled at the headline and thought it worth posting:

    Realtor.com Finds Homes Near EV Chargers Command Higher Prices
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    Some more news on Nikola and their Hydrogen trucks. No idea if this solution makes sense outside of Japan (perhaps), but more choice and competition can't be a bad thing.

    The argument seems to lean towards lighter trucks, so more load carrying capacity, which is a fair argument, but as we've discussed before, only a very small percentage of trucks run at max weight, most max out in volume first.

    Nikola Motors Shoots For The Moon With 5 New Electric Vehicles — #CleanTechnica Field Trip
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,355 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Disclaimer, I haven't actually read this, I just chuckled at the headline and thought it worth posting:

    Realtor.com Finds Homes Near EV Chargers Command Higher Prices
    Hi

    An in depth investigation would likely show the root cause to be clusters of chargers at hospitals and in affluent/gentrified urban areas, both of which already impacted on house prices ....Chicken or Egg comes to mind!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • almillar
    almillar Posts: 8,621 Forumite
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    I like being able to turn the heater on without being scared I'm going to conk out in the middle of the road.

    Ever heard of this actually happening? Do you know how much energy it takes to move a car, compared to heating it? (much more!).
    And I don't think they are any less bad for the environment unless they can power themselves by windmills somehow.

    They already are. If you dig a fossil fuel out of the ground, and use it to power an ICE car, or a power station, the electric car uses less of that fossil fuel. But you also add the possibility of using renewable sources of energy - ICE cars don't have this option.
    If they can't plug it in at home, then they need to make a special trip to charge it and "hang around" for however long it takes to charge.

    Supermarket, cinema, workplace. No hanging around necessary unless you're a hermit and can't charge at home. Hanging around will only happen on long journeys if you're the kind of person that never buys anything at motorway services. And when I say 'long journeys', they're getting longer all the time with batteries getting bigger.
    The point I was making about 30p fast charging is that it's not an reasonable alternative to home charging. If I were on a long journey using the motorways I'd have no objection (or, as Z has noted, look for alternatives). If I were staying overnight in a hotel/B&B a much slower rate would also be acceptable and I'd expect a commensurately cheaper rate.

    Yes. Time is money. Rapids at service stations will be the most expensive way to fill. Electric at home is ~15p/kWh, half the price proposed above. Those rapids will only be used when needed. And I've already charged for 'free' at hotels I'm staying at. 3kW charger, full car in the morning. Everybody knows petrol is most expensive at motorway services, and only fills there if they have to, don't they?!
    but with cheap overnight tariffs disappearing once everone is trying to draw 7KW overnight.

    More speculation? We've been over this, overnight charging helps remove the 'trough' overnight, keeping plants running instead of switching them on and off, which is more efficient. People will be encouraged to charge overnight for a long time yet.
    People are lazy and don't like change/disruption to the norm so any incentive to go BEV needs to overcome large, often imaginary, hurdles before most would even consider the option.

    Yes it is workable for most people, however they need convincing of it. And getting a more integrated and complete charging network would be a big step.
    He's right, Ted. That's what we're trying to do on this thread, I hope.
    the only Western company making sizeable numbers of BEV's (but a shout out to Nissan and Renault for their efforts),

    Nissan have made more EVs than Tesla.
    Maybe this time we can chat about EV's, and perhaps Tesla dominant position (at the moment) being a fact, not fanboi'ism. If we can't accept that one company is leading the charge (a simple fact) then how can we chat about EV's ...... it's all about context.

    I don't think we can agree on that (one company leading the charge), you see. Most people can't afford a Tesla, and there are many EVs way below that price point. A reminder that the Model 3 doesn't yet exist in the UK.
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,355 Forumite
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    almillar wrote: »
    .. Nissan have made more EVs than Tesla ...
    Hi

    I'm not entirely sure that's still correct!

    On 8th March this year Nissan hailed the Leaf build passing 400k in a little over 8 years helped by significantly increasing production volumes in 2018 (the Tesla effect?), with all of their historical EV programs adding ~1% to the total.

    Against this Tesla (all models) passed 500k at the end of 2018 ... model 3 alone is now approaching 250k units, 95% of which have been in the last 12 months even with the production ramp-up issues ...

    Who'd have thought it, the newcomer sprinting past #1 in terms of overall sales in such a short time, creating a disruptive focus of fear across the entire established automotive industry players which has disrupted the normal planning cycle & caused some serious strategic rethinks! ....

    For such an insignificant player, they're not only punching above their weight ... at the moment they're winning & stealing a significant experience & technology lead over the competition!


    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
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