Multiple accounts with bank, but still charged for unarranged overdraft
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OliB150
Posts: 10 Forumite
Evening all - not sure if I'm just being overly stubborn on this one (I'll admit it is likely) but am I being unrealistic to think that if I have multiple accounts with my bank (one personal, one joint with partner, who also has a personal one with them) and our joint account goes overdrawn unexpectedly, but enough money is available in both other accounts to cover this deficit, that it's a bit unfair for them to charge me for the privilege?
They signed us up to their alert service (without us asking to be) and we came to rely on those handy text messages (saying "to prevent fees") if the account went into the red and would typically move money in from the other accounts within a few minutes in order to get back to black. This system 'conveniently' started to fail about 18 months ago, and wouldn't give us any notification on the day it went over, but instead the day after, with different text saying "to minimise fees". First time this happened, I rang them, debated the fact that I had not accepted any T&C's when subscribing to this service as we never requested it, and they waived the charge.
In the months since then though, it does happen every now and again, sometimes with a warning, and other times saying it was too late. I've been back over statements some times and found that the final account balance has not gone below £0 at the end of any day during the month they are charging me for. Other times, it is a case of a direct debit due to go out on that day (shows in the balance but not in the 'available' balance), then we go shopping for say £10 which is available because the account balance is say £50, then the £45 DD clears at the end of the day and bam we get charged £6-8 for being £5 overdrawn. Should they not have declined the shopping transaction if the money was not 'available'?
I read on the main site that you can only really claim this back from banks now if it is causing financial difficulty, and I'm pleased to say we're fortunate enough that it doesn't, it's just an annoyance and doesn't seem fair and reasonable to me, especially considering we're not strictly in the red with them at all, when balanced across the three accounts, so I'm not sure what they're exactly trying to claim I've inconvenienced them with...! :A
They signed us up to their alert service (without us asking to be) and we came to rely on those handy text messages (saying "to prevent fees") if the account went into the red and would typically move money in from the other accounts within a few minutes in order to get back to black. This system 'conveniently' started to fail about 18 months ago, and wouldn't give us any notification on the day it went over, but instead the day after, with different text saying "to minimise fees". First time this happened, I rang them, debated the fact that I had not accepted any T&C's when subscribing to this service as we never requested it, and they waived the charge.
In the months since then though, it does happen every now and again, sometimes with a warning, and other times saying it was too late. I've been back over statements some times and found that the final account balance has not gone below £0 at the end of any day during the month they are charging me for. Other times, it is a case of a direct debit due to go out on that day (shows in the balance but not in the 'available' balance), then we go shopping for say £10 which is available because the account balance is say £50, then the £45 DD clears at the end of the day and bam we get charged £6-8 for being £5 overdrawn. Should they not have declined the shopping transaction if the money was not 'available'?
I read on the main site that you can only really claim this back from banks now if it is causing financial difficulty, and I'm pleased to say we're fortunate enough that it doesn't, it's just an annoyance and doesn't seem fair and reasonable to me, especially considering we're not strictly in the red with them at all, when balanced across the three accounts, so I'm not sure what they're exactly trying to claim I've inconvenienced them with...! :A
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Comments
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It's unreasonable to be charged £6 for being £5 overdrawn.
My DDs (from many accounts, covering over 75% of UK high street banks) always go out in the morning, so not sure why yours are being taken in the afternoon. They can be taken in the afternoon if there isn't enough money in the morning so the DD is declined, then you put money in during the day though. Anyway, a DD isn't really an unexpected expense. I have a sheet showing me all my expected DDs. If it's really unexpected, then you should be able to claim it back.
If one of your accounts is regularly going overdrawn yet you have money in another account, it seems that you could manage your accounts better. If it's a case of keeping joint and personal expenses separate, can't both of you just pay more money into the joint account? Or is it sometimes the joint going over and sometimes your personal ones going over?0 -
Thanks for the reply. From what I've seen, at the start of the day any money for DD's seems to reduce the 'available' balance, then at the end of the day, it goes from the actual balance.
The DD's going out are not unexpected (although the specific day they go seems to be different by up to a week each month), but the charges for going overdrawn certainly is unexpected.
It's only ever our joint account that goes overdrawn, covering bills and household shops. We've over-budgeted for all the fixed monthly bills going out, as well as several shops, and have generally got enough each month, it just seems to be if we do a shop on the same day as one of the DD's going out, that it gets a bit out of sync, and I still believe the transaction should be declined, instead of the bank knowingly allowing me to go into an un-arranged overdraft, then charging me - which seems a bit underhanded to me.
We've recently up'ed the amount we transfer in an attempt to counteract this, but no doubt it will happen again in the future, so just wanted to see if there is any way of actually linking the accounts to auto top-up from each other if necessary. Probably a discussion to be had with the bank directly, but they'll probably just tell me it's my fault and they have every right to charge me.0 -
Are you saying you're not pre-notified (with 10 working days notice) of both the date and amount? Or are you saying you don't check the statements/emails/letters sent to you, and just presume the date will be the same as it was last month? If the former, then you claim under the direct debit guarantee. If the latter...well, you know what you have to do.The DD's going out are not unexpected (although the specific day they go seems to be different by up to a week each month)
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Didn't know I was supposed to get notification of date and amount to be honest - it's a life insurance policy that has been running for 4+ years, set up via a financial advisor when we moved house. It seems to go any time between 10th-20th of the month.
Don't recall ever receiving anything from them actually, since the original policy documents!0 -
Evening all - not sure if I'm just being overly stubborn on this one (I'll admit it is likely) but am I being unrealistic to think that if I have multiple accounts with my bank (one personal, one joint with partner, who also has a personal one with them) and our joint account goes overdrawn unexpectedly, but enough money is available in both other accounts to cover this deficit, that it's a bit unfair for them to charge me for the privilege?
Honestly? Yes, you are being unreasonable. Each of those accounts is distinct and, furthermore, the money in an individual's acount does not belong to the person with whom they hold a joint account. The money in your joint account is jointly owned by you and your partner, but the money in your personal account or theirs belongs solely to that individual, so the bank cannot draw on those funds to avoid the overdraft on the joint account.
You (and your partner) are responsible for managing your money. The bank has provided you with a joint account and any payments that you authorise on that account should, rightly, be drawn on that account. They should not touch the money in any other account that you hold. If this is a regular problem, then I suggest you look at your outgoings from the joint account and ensure that more money is deposited into it each month to cover them.They signed us up to their alert service (without us asking to be) and we came to rely on those handy text messages (saying "to prevent fees") if the account went into the red and would typically move money in from the other accounts within a few minutes in order to get back to black. This system 'conveniently' started to fail about 18 months ago, and wouldn't give us any notification on the day it went over, but instead the day after, with different text saying "to minimise fees". First time this happened, I rang them, debated the fact that I had not accepted any T&C's when subscribing to this service as we never requested it, and they waived the charge.
So they waived the fees for going overdrawn because you hadn't received a text alert which you hadn't actively signed up to??? You argued that they shouldn't charge you because you hadn't received a text message that you didn't ask for??? I'd say that you were very lucky to get them to waive the fees that time and you should count yourself as such.
Furthermore the text alerts can be handy, but they are not guaranteed to get to you in time. You shouldn't rely on them. You need to take a more attractive approach to monitoring your account.In the months since then though, it does happen every now and again, sometimes with a warning, and other times saying it was too late. I've been back over statements some times and found that the final account balance has not gone below £0 at the end of any day during the month they are charging me for.
Which bank is it? Many don't charge if your account is in credit at the close of business, even if it goes into overdraft during the course of the day. You need to check your terms and conditions to ascertain what your bank do. If they say that they won't charge as long as the account is in credit by the close of business then you have grounds for a complaint. If they don't say that then you don't have grounds.Other times, it is a case of a direct debit due to go out on that day (shows in the balance but not in the 'available' balance), then we go shopping for say £10 which is available because the account balance is say £50, then the £45 DD clears at the end of the day and bam we get charged £6-8 for being £5 overdrawn. Should they not have declined the shopping transaction if the money was not 'available'?
No, they shouldn't, because your current account has an overdraft facility on it. Furthermore, your debit card transaction may not have been processed online, so there was no way for anyone (except you) to know that you didn't have available funds (although you did because of the overdraft facility). Again, you are responsible for ensuring that you have the money to make any transactions that you choose to make.
If this is a common problem, then you may want to consider a credit card, which would give you an interest free period and delay the withdrawal of your money from your current account. It is important, however, that you learn some money management if you are going to use a credit card, as it is a risky option for those who spend without checking that they actually have the money / will have the money once the repayment is due.I read on the main site that you can only really claim this back from banks now if it is causing financial difficulty, and I'm pleased to say we're fortunate enough that it doesn't, it's just an annoyance and doesn't seem fair and reasonable to me, especially considering we're not strictly in the red with them at all, when balanced across the three accounts, so I'm not sure what they're exactly trying to claim I've inconvenienced them with...! :A
You are in the red in that particular account and that is what matters. It is not for the bank to manage your cashflow, but rather it is for you and your partner to do so.Thanks for the reply. From what I've seen, at the start of the day any money for DD's seems to reduce the 'available' balance, then at the end of the day, it goes from the actual balance.
The DD's going out are not unexpected (although the specific day they go seems to be different by up to a week each month), but the charges for going overdrawn certainly is unexpected.
You will have been notified of what the charges are in the terms and conditions. You went overdrawn, so you should have expected the charge. That you didn't realise you would go overdrawn is your fault not the bank's, and they are entitled to charge you for that.It's only ever our joint account that goes overdrawn, covering bills and household shops. We've over-budgeted for all the fixed monthly bills going out, as well as several shops, and have generally got enough each month, it just seems to be if we do a shop on the same day as one of the DD's going out, that it gets a bit out of sync, and I still believe the transaction should be declined, instead of the bank knowingly allowing me to go into an un-arranged overdraft, then charging me - which seems a bit underhanded to me.
Clearly you aren't putting enough money into the joint account. I think that one of the problems here is that you are trying to make known and fixed payments from an account where you are also making unknown and unfixed payments, i.e. your monthly bills are known and fixed, but your shopping can vary. This means that you are not depositing enough in the account to cover all of that. If you were to use a credit card for the shopping then this would eliminate the problem. You could transfer the necessary sum into the joint account for the direct debits each month and then do your shopping on the credit card. Once the credit card bill came through, you would know how much you needed to transfer to the account to cover it. Simple.
It isn't underhand to charge you the advertised fees for going overdrawn. Having money in another account is irrelevant.We've recently up'ed the amount we transfer in an attempt to counteract this, but no doubt it will happen again in the future, so just wanted to see if there is any way of actually linking the accounts to auto top-up from each other if necessary. Probably a discussion to be had with the bank directly, but they'll probably just tell me it's my fault and they have every right to charge me.
I've given you a solution above.0 -
Look at it this way, the bank does not know what you planned to do with the money in your other account. If they dipped into that without asking you, and subsequently bounced a request for payment for something critical, you!!!8217;d likely be annoyed that they had caused you to fail to make that payment.
They are not there to manage your money for you, you need to take responsibility for this. If one account has a buffer, transfer this buffer into the account that is running short.0 -
I!!!8217;m not expecting them to manage my money for me - but surely the premise behind the charges is that I!!!8217;m borrowing money from them, effectively causing them to go into debt. When I!!!8217;m actually not, as I am still in the black overall.
Yes I did argue with them that I had relied on their system for notification. They said to me that I accepted their T&C!!!8217;s saying it should not be relied upon as it may not arrive on time. This is not the case, I never agreed to this, as they activated the service on my accounts. Even then, they did not read them to me, did not advise me where to find them, nor ask me to agree to them in order to get the service active. So that!!!8217;s their failing.
The part that I feel is underhand is that up until that point, the message would come through and we!!!8217;d resolve the problem straight away. Then miraculously the system would start ONLY sending us the messages the following day saying we!!!8217;d incurred charges, that seems to arrive perfectly fine and within the normal timescale in the morning (0800-0900). It!!!8217;s not like the message from the previous day comes through late, there has clearly been no attempt to send that one through to us. In fact all the recent cases of this have happened that way. Nothing on the day we could have resolved the issue, then both get notification of fees.
I completely agree that as a !!!8216;normal customer!!!8217;, I would not want them to take money from the other account and risk causing issues that way, but that!!!8217;s not quite what I!!!8217;m saying. I!!!8217;m on about an opt-in service where I can select which account could be used as a buffer and up to a certain amount, if the funds are available. Much like a credit card can be configured to automatically draw the outstanding balance at the end of the month to return to zero. I!!!8217;ve heard that!!!8217;s a thing, but as I don!!!8217;t have a credit card (never needed one, don!!!8217;t want one), I can!!!8217;t say for certain how that works.0 -
The bank can't move money from one account to the other for you, you have to do that or your joint account holder from theirs.
Have you considered using the joint account for bills ie DDs only and having a different account for spending. This means the DD money will be available for the DD (specifically the one you refer to above) on which ever day it is called for.I’m a Forum Ambassador and I support the Forum Team on the Budgeting & Bank Accounts, Credit Cards, Credit File & Ratings and Energy boards. If you need any help on these boards, do let me know. Please note that Ambassadors are not moderators. Any posts you spot in breach of the Forum Rules should be reported via the report button, or by emailing forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. All views are my own and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
If you can't be the best -
Just be better than you were yesterday.0 -
We have indeed considered this and will probably be one of the next steps, depending on how successful our increased transfer amounts turn out to be!0
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I!!!8217;m not expecting them to manage my money for me - but surely the premise behind the charges is that I!!!8217;m borrowing money from them, effectively causing them to go into debt. When I!!!8217;m actually not, as I am still in the black overall.
It is irrelevant that you have money in other accounts. That account is overdrawn. This issue is to do with how you manage your accounts, which is your responsibility.I did argue with them that I had relied on their system for notification. They said to me that I accepted their T&C!!!8217;s saying it should not be relied upon as it may not arrive on time. This is not the case, I never agreed to this, as they activated the service on my accounts. Even then, they did not read them to me, did not advise me where to find them, nor ask me to agree to them in order to get the service active. So that!!!8217;s their failing.
I don't agree. The t&c are available on the bank's website and as you are using the service you should have familiarised yourself with how the service worked. They didn't need your express authorisation to set alerts up as it is an account feature and you had agreed to the account.The part that I feel is underhand is that up until that point, the message would come through and we!!!8217;d resolve the problem straight away. Then miraculously the system would start ONLY sending us the messages the following day saying we!!!8217;d incurred charges, that seems to arrive perfectly fine and within the normal timescale in the morning (0800-0900). It!!!8217;s not like the message from the previous day comes through late, there has clearly been no attempt to send that one through to us. In fact all the recent cases of this have happened that way. Nothing on the day we could have resolved the issue, then both get notification of fees.
As you had already identified this as a problem, why didn't you stop relying on alerts? They don't guarantee to alert you in time and you are responsible for managing your money, not the bank.I completely agree that as a !!!8216;normal customer!!!8217;, I would not want them to take money from the other account and risk causing issues that way, but that!!!8217;s not quite what I!!!8217;m saying. I!!!8217;m on about an opt-in service where I can select which account could be used as a buffer and up to a certain amount, if the funds are available. Much like a credit card can be configured to automatically draw the outstanding balance at the end of the month to return to zero. I!!!8217;ve heard that!!!8217;s a thing, but as I don!!!8217;t have a credit card (never needed one, don!!!8217;t want one), I can!!!8217;t say for certain how that works.
You are asking for a service which was never offered. There are lots of good reasons why it isn't, as I, and others, have already explained. Your analogy to a credit card is nonsense. What you are talking about is where a customer has set up a direct debit to pay the outstanding balance every month. Current accounts are completely different products, and a direct debit from one of your other accounts couldn't be used because you have to be notified of a direct debit at least ten days in advance.
Why don't you want a credit card? It would solve all of your problems.0
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