Multiple accounts with bank, but still charged for unarranged overdraft
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To clarify further, I have held my account with them for over a decade, the joint one was set up about 7 years ago. They enabled the alert service approx 4 years ago. So no, I did not accept the terms and conditions when it came with the account, because it didn't. My point is, they tried to claim I accepted these terms when activating the service, but I never activated it, therefore any such claim is false. Starting to wonder if you are the person I spoke to that day.
The difference is, they say they can't guarantee the alerts reach you on time, but this isn't a case of them arriving late, they simply don't arrive at all. Therefore no effort is being made to send them, so they might as well not bother with the service at all. Yet conveniently the ones saying it's too late and I'm going to be charged always seem to come through without fail. This is the reason I have issue with them and believe it is underhanded.
My other issue is that if the DD is clearing and my 'available' balance is reduced until it has left the account, then any transactions made on that day should surely be equally declined, because the funds are not available against the available balance. It has happened many a time that I'll go to pay for something for say £10 in the shop, and the card is declined, because the funds are rightly not available. Yet in the example above, the funds are also not available and they allow the payment and I get charged. That is not me asking them to manage my finances for me, that's me questioning why they are knowingly allowing me to go overdrawn when in other circumstances they do not. It is a failing of their system based on the specific set of circumstances provided.
It may surprise you to hear that not everyone checks their bank balances before every transaction to make sure the funds are available. The card being declined is a pretty good indicator that I need to top the account up, so I just pay with my other card before moving some money around to sort the problem.
I realise I'm asking for a service that was never offered, thats why I prefixed it with "just wanted to see if there is any way of"... It seems like a pretty simple service to me, but then why would the banks want to offer such a service which would stop them being able to charge people. It's not in their interest to do so.
The reason I don't want a credit card is because I simply don't need to borrow money. And don't try and say "well you're going overdrawn so therefore you do", because that is, as you would say, nonsense. I have the money available to my name, its just in the wrong digital bucket. The bank has not been inconvenienced, nor have they had to go and get a Wonga loan with an extreme interest rate because little old me went £5 overdrawn, because as a person, I have not. They still have all my other money to do whatever trading they do with.0 -
It may surprise you to hear that not everyone checks their bank balances before every transaction to make sure the funds are available. The card being declined is a pretty good indicator that I need to top the account up, so I just pay with my other card before moving some money around to sort the problem.
As has already been explained to you, not all debit card transactions are "online" (meaning not all transactions involve the retailer's bank contacting yours in real time). Many smaller transactions fall below the retailer's bank's "floor limit" meaning that it will honour the transaction without having to check it in real time. In these cases it could be days (or in extreme cases even months) before your account is debited. You should not rely on a card being declined to indicate you have gone overdrawn.... but then why would the banks want to offer such a service which would stop them being able to charge people. It's not in their interest to do so.
Pathetic conspiracy theory.The reason I don't want a credit card is because I simply don't need to borrow money.
I don't need to borrow money. Most credit card users don't need to borrow money. They are used to manage money. By putting all your spend on a credit card and then settling the credit card bill in full every month you will avoid the issues you have been having, and never pay interest on the credit card (indeed depending on which credit card you use you may get a small amount of cashback).0 -
To clarify further, I have held my account with them for over a decade, the joint one was set up about 7 years ago. They enabled the alert service approx 4 years ago. So no, I did not accept the terms and conditions when it came with the account, because it didn't.
I'm afraid that you are wrong there. Every time the terms and conditions are updated the bank informs you of this, and when the new terms are due to take effect. You are free to close your account before that date and not be bound by the new terms, but if you don't then you are deemed to have accepted the new terms, so you did accept them. That's the way it works in law.My point is, they tried to claim I accepted these terms when activating the service, but I never activated it, therefore any such claim is false. Starting to wonder if you are the person I spoke to that day.
You did accept the terms by not closing your account before the new terms came into effect. Sorry, but you don't seem to understand how contracts work.
I'm not the person you spoke to, but I do understand how a contract works and the revisions to it.The difference is, they say they can't guarantee the alerts reach you on time, but this isn't a case of them arriving late, they simply don't arrive at all. Therefore no effort is being made to send them, so they might as well not bother with the service at all.
They don't have to. It is a feature of the account (that you consented to), but not one that provides any guarantee. In essence, it is a gimmick that may be of use, but may not.Yet conveniently the ones saying it's too late and I'm going to be charged always seem to come through without fail. This is the reason I have issue with them and believe it is underhanded.
Irrelevant. You are responsible for managing your own finances, not the bank. The bank provides a non-guaranteed service that may help you with this, but you cannot rely on it and they expressly say that you shouldn't.My other issue is that if the DD is clearing and my 'available' balance is reduced until it has left the account, then any transactions made on that day should surely be equally declined, because the funds are not available against the available balance.
No, because, as I have already explained to you, you have an overdraft facility on the account and therefore the bank will honour the transaction. And, for the umpeenth time, it is your responsibility to ensure that you have sufficient funds to meet your transactions!It has happened many a time that I'll go to pay for something for say £10 in the shop, and the card is declined, because the funds are rightly not available. Yet in the example above, the funds are also not available and they allow the payment and I get charged.
Maybe it has been, but that could be due to whether the payment is being authorised offline or online. If it is online then there is a check that there are funds, but if it isn't then there is no check and the bank, therefore, honours the payment because otherwise the merchant would be out of pocket and you would have got a load of free shopping.That is not me asking them to manage my finances for me, that's me questioning why they are knowingly allowing me to go overdrawn when in other circumstances they do not. It is a failing of their system based on the specific set of circumstances provided.
No, it is a failing in your understanding of how payments work. And yes, you are asking the bank to manage your finances: you are responsible for ensuring that you have the funds necessary.It may surprise you to hear that not everyone checks their bank balances before every transaction to make sure the funds are available.
We don't all need to because we know that we have sufficient funds to cover all of our spending. You, on the other hand apparently do not, and so you should be checking regularly, and keeping track of your spending.The card being declined is a pretty good indicator that I need to top the account up, so I just pay with my other card before moving some money around to sort the problem.
Give me strength! That is not pro-actively managing your finances. You are taking a reactive approach and relying on the bank sending you signals (in one form or another) that you don't have money in the account. You are responsible for ensuring that you have funds available.I realise I'm asking for a service that was never offered, thats why I prefixed it with "just wanted to see if there is any way of"... It seems like a pretty simple service to me, but then why would the banks want to offer such a service which would stop them being able to charge people. It's not in their interest to do so.
Don't be ridiculous. You took an acount with them and agreed to the terms. Because of your poor financial management you have been charged overdraft fees and so now you are complaining that the account should offer a feature that it was never advertised with, and that you knew it didn't have when you opened the account!
It may, "seem like a pretty simple service to [you]," but it isn't one that they offer. Furthermore, it remains your responsibility. I see no reason why the bank should offer this, but if they did then one might reasonably expect that it would be a paid for feature - banks do have to turn a profit, you know. Would you be willing to pay for such a feature?The reason I don't want a credit card is because I simply don't need to borrow money. And don't try and say "well you're going overdrawn so therefore you do", because that is, as you would say, nonsense.
Where do I begin with this? You don't seem to understand credit cards either. Yes, you are borrowing money, but at 0% every month. As long as you pay it back then you never pay any interest. Credit cards are only a source of debt if people don't take care to only spend money that they actually have. Thousands and thousands of us use credit cards all the time and never pay anything for the facility. Of course, given your apparent inability to keep a track of your spending then maybe it isn't a suitable option for you.
I use a credit card for almost all of my spending, but I have absolutely no need to borrow money. I use the card because of the many benefits that it provides (see below) and because it assists in the management of my money.
There are other benefits to using credit cards too, like Section 75 protection; earning interest on the funds in our accounts for a longer period of time due to the interest free period; earning cashback on our spending (thus reducing or outgoings); earning rewards, e.g. Tesco Clubcard points, Avios points, etc.
Oh, and by the way, it is conventional to respond to comments made rather than try and guess what someone will write and get your attack in first. You are the only one writing nonsense in this thread.I have the money available to my name, its just in the wrong digital bucket.
Then put it in the right "bucket" and stop blaming the bank for your own ineptitude with managing your finances.The bank has not been inconvenienced, nor have they had to go and get a Wonga loan with an extreme interest rate because little old me went £5 overdrawn, because as a person, I have not. They still have all my other money to do whatever trading they do with.
Utterly irrelevant, as has been explained to you repeatedly. You have gone overdrawn, entirely through your own fault, and the bank has charged you entirely within their stated terms and fees, which you agreed to!
You don't seem to understand how banking works.
May I remind you of how you began your first post:Evening all - not sure if I'm just being overly stubborn on this one (I'll admit it is likely)
I'm here to let you know that you were correct in your suspicions: you are being stubborn.0 -
This is getting painful at this point.
It was your fault, it was completely your fault, the bank did nothing wrong, and you do not seem to understand this.
You need to start acting like an adult, and taking responsibility for your decisions. The bank is not your parents, it is not there to hold your hand, and it explicitly explained this to you.
Are you by any chance a millennial?0 -
To further clarify - yes when the main terms and conditions change I get noticication, I keep the account open and thereby accept them. I get that. That isnt what has happened with this specific service though. They didn’t one day say “hey, we’re activating this service here are the terms, read and accept, or don’t read and accept them by default”. This has never happened. I just started receiving messages one day. Even after I spoke with then on the phone, they did not request I read and accept the terms, or the service would be deactivated. Therefore no offer of contract amanedment was made.
I appreciate I’m being stubborn, but getting into “Are you by any chance a millennial” is not constructive in the slighest and in my opinion shows that if anything, you have resorted to trying to cause offense instead of continuing in a debate and trying to convey and articulate your point. Not a good character trait.
At least ValiantSon whilst constantly picking apart my posts (little annoying, but with reason) is addressing all points to improve my understanding.
As far as I’m now concerned, this topic is done and can be closed. The point has been made that yes I am in the wrong (we’ve covered the fact that I said this was a possibility from the offset). I still don’t agree with some of the points, but that is how it is. I think it could be run differently; maybe when I come to power, I’ll make a bank with my bright ideas and watch the masses come flooding to me because I look out for the customer by offering them easier ways to manage their money in the digital age where there is no reason not to provide systems which the user can customise to achieve such a feature
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Debate?
I appreciate I’m being stubborn, but getting into “Are you by any chance a millennial” is not constructive in the slighest and in my opinion shows that if anything, you have resorted to trying to cause offense instead of continuing in a debate
There is no debate, everyone is telling you the same thing, you are being ridiculous and this is completely your fault.
You are a millennial, aren’t you? And this is not trying to cause offence, just noting the high correlation between being a millennial and completely refusing to take responsibility for things that you chose to do.
You need to grow up and start taking responsibility if you want to get anywhere in life.0 -
Quoted for posterity, as I’ve a feeling that otherwise the original may not exist for long...Evening all - not sure if I'm just being overly stubborn on this one (I'll admit it is likely) but am I being unrealistic to think that if I have multiple accounts with my bank (one personal, one joint with partner, who also has a personal one with them) and our joint account goes overdrawn unexpectedly, but enough money is available in both other accounts to cover this deficit, that it's a bit unfair for them to charge me for the privilege?
They signed us up to their alert service (without us asking to be) and we came to rely on those handy text messages (saying "to prevent fees") if the account went into the red and would typically move money in from the other accounts within a few minutes in order to get back to black. This system 'conveniently' started to fail about 18 months ago, and wouldn't give us any notification on the day it went over, but instead the day after, with different text saying "to minimise fees". First time this happened, I rang them, debated the fact that I had not accepted any T&C's when subscribing to this service as we never requested it, and they waived the charge.
In the months since then though, it does happen every now and again, sometimes with a warning, and other times saying it was too late. I've been back over statements some times and found that the final account balance has not gone below £0 at the end of any day during the month they are charging me for. Other times, it is a case of a direct debit due to go out on that day (shows in the balance but not in the 'available' balance), then we go shopping for say £10 which is available because the account balance is say £50, then the £45 DD clears at the end of the day and bam we get charged £6-8 for being £5 overdrawn. Should they not have declined the shopping transaction if the money was not 'available'?
I read on the main site that you can only really claim this back from banks now if it is causing financial difficulty, and I'm pleased to say we're fortunate enough that it doesn't, it's just an annoyance and doesn't seem fair and reasonable to me, especially considering we're not strictly in the red with them at all, when balanced across the three accounts, so I'm not sure what they're exactly trying to claim I've inconvenienced them with...! :A0 -
It’s still a debate, because it’s me stating I disagree with the points being made, and giving my reasoning why. Then others raising counter arguments. Last I checked, that’s how it works.
Be honest, you were trying to cause offense, are are still continuing to do so after I’ve said the topic is done. You’ve just done the equivalent of “I’m not being racist, but...”.
You’re now trying to backtrack because I called you out on it.
I’ve acknowledged I am in the wrong, but you are continuing. What more do you seek to achieve from this exchange?
I’m already taking enough responsibility and have made what I want of my life so far considering the cards I have been dealt, but thank you for your concern. I’ll cite you as my inspiration when/if I make it to the height you believe I should be at.
Quote me all you like for ‘posterity’. I won’t be deleting the thread, but if I did, your quote would disappear also. Maybe try printing it off and framing it behind your toilet.0 -
Quote me all you like for ‘posterity’. I won’t be deleting the thread, but if I did, your quote would disappear also. Maybe try printing it off and framing it behind your toilet.
Should you decide to become a long term and productive forum member it's worth knowing that you can't delete a thread (in some circumstances you can ask MSE to delete it for you, although I don't think this would be such a case). You can delete posts after the first one, but all you can do with your OP is to delete the content, which is why we sometimes quote it when there is a perceived risk that the poster will throw their toys out of the pram.0 -
As stated, no intention for me to delete. I’ve learnt my life lesson from John-K that I need to be responsible for my actions and this will be my first success story now I’ve turned my life around.
I’ll throw out there that a big failing of other forums is long standing members having a belief that they are better than new users, because they have a higher post count to their name. There is a high risk that new members that could have been seeking to become a productive long standing member of the community get put off by this attitude and don’t bother to return. Not saying this is the case from your post agrinnall, however it could be something other members could take on board and check how they are perceived by others, as tone cannot be conveyed across text. Attempts at insults however, can be.
If the admins want to close this, be my guest. Nothing more productive is likely to come of it.0
This discussion has been closed.
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