Dig for Victory - Mark II

Changingme

Just got free greenhouse,lady wanted it gone let me have it free saved her paying to get it taken away:p ,will have to take rotten shed down now to put it up in place, what with my few tubs and washing line won't have much garden left but hey should be able to grow few more things.

ceridwen

I've been thinking further along the lines of groups of people buying up land and dividing it into allotments - I am wondering whether there might be possibilities for those odd bits of land in urban areas that the owner is trying to sell off for development. In the current economic climate - I am wondering whether some of these owners might be amenable to suggestions from a group of people about renting them out that land for foodgrowing purposes - on the understanding that the "allotmenteers" will give up the use of the land when the owner manages to find someone who wants to buy it.

Half a loaf is better than none - and just how fast are the owners going to be able to sell that land at present. So - I just throw that into the mix as a thought.....

There are bits of developed land with derelict buildings on in land thats prone to flooding for instance - it could be that some of that land is owned by Councils and am wondering whether they might be open to suggestions along the lines of "We will knock down those eyesore derelict buildings - if, in return, you let us use the land as allotments"..

Suzy_M

Problem with individual privately owned allotments is that sooner or later the owners start thinking of them as capital assets. As with a lot of land ownership you would only get three generations at most who would respect the original good intentions.

E.g. There are a couple of large areas of privately owned allotment land near us that have been in existence since early 1900. The plots are big (smallest was 400 square yards), had own water supplies, shared orchards etc. None of the land has been used as an allotment for at least 30 years - roughly one generation.
Many owners have said "Ooooh no I'll never sell it for building on" but they have sold on to neighbouring plot owners - who happen to be builders!

rhiwfield

Orinally posted by Silvercharming: "Also, I am wondering whether, if you scattered wildflower seeds in an area of long grass, would the grass smother the wildflowers before they got to germinate? I know they say that when people are establishing their own wildflower meadows, but I'm thinking longer term - I'm assuming that if a few came up this year and spread their seed, a few more would come up next year, and so on, but I need to make sure that there's a chance those first few would come up"

I've been managing a 3 acre natural meadow for the last 8 years. I'd be very glad to answer specific questions but here's a few thoughts:

• wildflowers mostly like poor soil. Trouble is most land has very fertile soil supporting rank grass, nettles and docks. To reduce soil fertilty you can scrape off the topsoil and sow/plant plugs into the subsoil
• if you sow seed into long grass you're probably wasting your time
• the best management of grassland for plant diversity is grazing. Not possible on our site due to restrictions so we cut and rake once a year. That keeps fertility low but the leavings have to be removed, we do it to sacrificial compost areas.
• unmanaged grassland goes thru succession to scrub and then woodland. You can reverse the process but its very hard work!!
• certain conditions suit some plants better than others. So yellow rattle is a damp grassland plant. Google up Ellenbergs Indicator Values as the best guide to what wild plants will grow where in the UK or see link http://www.ceh.ac.uk/products/publications/untitled.html
• any management regime will suit some species better than others.
• if you are introducing wildflowers try to use native species from the locality, your local wildlife trust may be able to help or try flora locale.

Oh, and golden rule number 1 that I almost forgot!! Make sure that existing grassland is of low biodiversity value before you start to chnage it!!

rhiwfield

Suzy_M wrote: »

Problem with individual privately owned allotments is that sooner or later the owners start thinking of them as capital assets. As with a lot of land ownership you would only get three generations at most who would respect the original good intentions.

E.g. There are a couple of large areas of privately owned allotment land near us that have been in existence since early 1900. The plots are big (smallest was 400 square yards), had own water supplies, shared orchards etc. None of the land has been used as an allotment for at least 30 years - roughly one generation.
Many owners have said "Ooooh no I'll never sell it for building on" but they have sold on to neighbouring plot owners - who happen to be builders!

But why not set up a charity to own them with clearly defined charitable objectives? Payment would be for right to use land with monies refunded when use moves to another gardener who pays tranfer value to charity. I think a half decent lawyer could dream up a suitable scheme with adequate safeguards so that people didnt lose out but use remained constant.

rhiwfield

ceridwen wrote: »

Actually - that sounds like a seriously good idea - and one that could be "adapted" to other at risk land.:D

Great Crested Newts are meant to be handled under licence only, but its prob more than an urban myth that populations do get moved to at risk sites

Chances are that if the area is boggy it may have wildlife interest already. Check out your local LBAP and see if its got a wildlife rating.

rhiwfield

Ceridwen "....errrr....I wouldnt be planning on allowing any of the land for parking spaces though.....room for a bike rack would be a good idea and future-friendly. I would see it as a waste of good foodgrowing land to use any of it for carparking...and believe people need encouraging out of their cars as far as possible"

Got to agree with you and Silvercharming on this. All I was thinking is that available land would be some distance away and might be difficult to get to. Maybe look along a bus route?

ceridwen

Suzy_M wrote: »

Problem with individual privately owned allotments is that sooner or later the owners start thinking of them as capital assets. As with a lot of land ownership you would only get three generations at most who would respect the original good intentions.

E.g. There are a couple of large areas of privately owned allotment land near us that have been in existence since early 1900. The plots are big (smallest was 400 square yards), had own water supplies, shared orchards etc. None of the land has been used as an allotment for at least 30 years - roughly one generation.
Many owners have said "Ooooh no I'll never sell it for building on" but they have sold on to neighbouring plot owners - who happen to be builders!

Which is a good point...and one of the reasons I suggested half allotment size plots, rather than full-size ones (less usable by builders). I guess one gets round this by a clause in some agreement that specifically forbids the land being used EVER for building purposes. Its not cast-iron at preventing future generations from doing this - but it provides a LOT of hindrance.

I guess there might be creative ways round this if one had a brainstorming session - I dont know - I've just got this idea I'm remembering from when bits of land (think it might have been rainforest - but I believe its been applied to other bits of land as well) were sold to people in plots 1 foot square - ie not big enough for any one person to do anything like building on - but it protected the land. I guess if a bit of land was technically owned in tiny little plots by a couple of hundred owners - that would rather put the kybosh on future generations misusing it subsequently. Hmmmm......in fact....thinking on......tell ya what could be done......I'm thinking of the concept of Square Foot Gardening - with its mini-plots of raised beds at 4 square feet each....From this - I think it could be a much better idea to use communal land as Square Foot Gardening Beds - rather than as allotments/half-allotments.

I gather 2 of these "beds" is deemed sufficient for one person basically - so households could own either 4 or 8 of these "beds" (ie enough for either a 2 person or 4 person household). If they owned an 8 bed portion - then 4 of their beds could be in one "row" and the other 4 be sited 2 rows over (ie near - but not adjacent enough to form a distinct "parcel" of land - so that it couldnt be sold as a distinct bit of land);) . Obviously - the walkways between these "beds" would be communal land anyway. I think this could work. Hmm......if £1,000 would be likely price for instance of an allotment-size bit of land - then 2 "beds" and a share of the walkways land - shouldnt cost much.

Hmmm.....goes off pondering...whilst still thinking on the hoof.....

(edit: just read Rhiwfield's idea and that also has possibilities.)

RAS

Davesnave wrote: »

You had to rescue soapwort? Normally, it looks after itself rather well!

Not when it is tucked in a very small neglected corner by a wall and someone decides to make a "pocket park". The whole parent plant disappeared. I took two of the seedlings and left the others to grow in the original location. Unfortunately the same area has been dug over again since by someone who only know plants that come from B&Q and it no longer grows there.

I have half a dozen young plants now and have relocated a few seedlings.

RAS

rhiwfield wrote: »

RAS, if I were to bet on the circumstance that could provoke a major change on gyo and self sufficiency, and enough to make govt try to take belated meaningful action, it would be a combination of climate change and associated sea level rise. The two together could result in inundation of food growing and population areas, habitat change, mass migration and more bitter water wars.

I suspect we may be singing from the same hymn sheet but, if climate change is happening, and I think it is, I still dont see current actions reversing or even stopping the process.

That is not to say that I dont think it worthwhile for individuals to work harder for their families food security.

I certainly think climate change is happening and a lot faster than the IPCC suggest.

Just when I started to realise all the stuff re brittle landscapes and saw the massive improvements in land that was managed properly, I realised that European grazing systems have wrecked vast areas of land across the globe over the last two/three centuries. Traditional nomadic herders probably were OK but maybe in smaller numbers than today. Settling them devastates a large area around. If we replaced dry scrub with almost zero grazing potential with seasonal grasslands fed by watercourses that ran most of the year, over large parts of the earth, I think that might be useful.

I know I am dreaming but...........