phorm/webwise

Dangle

Helix wrote: »

Virgin Media have already changed theres.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/400/virgin-media-make-their-terms-and-conditions-phorm-friendly

So looks like they are more involved with phorm than they would like us to believe. Not saying they have started using it yet but I think they are further than just showing an interest.

According to this comment in response to an item on The Register -

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/09/ico_phorm_tougher/comments/#c_197366

A Virgin Media customer was told that Webwise was supposed to have been in place in early April, but wasn't because of the media and public backlash.

markyboy7

It's interesting that webwise say they won't snoop on people visiting "adult" or "gambling" sites.

How do they know what site you visit unless they look?

Also, we all know that these sort of sites account for a big chunk of the internet. Does anyone really believe that they are going to ignore it for very long?

Once they start this who knows where it will end?

[edit]

Sorry, when I said gambling I meant gaming. I'm not very PC and forget the words that the advertising industry tell me I must use.

markyboy7

Chroma wrote: »

The phorm system is simmilar to the royal mail opening all your letters before delivering them to tell advertising companies what your interested in so they can post you junk mail based on your interests.

Well recent reports suggest that one postal worker a day is sacked for doing just this. It's probably easiest just to make this sort of thing legal.

markyboy7

I've just heard that many web-site owners are planning on charging ISP's using webwise for the use of their intellectual property.

They will base this on logging each individual visit of a webwise subscribed user. They can test this because webwise forges a cookie that pretends to come from their site and they can detect this.

What happens if the ISP's decide to pass on the costs to us users? Some of these costs are set to be very high.

The sites that charge will have to say so in their terms and conditions so once webwise is turned on I urge everyone to check the T&C's of every site they visit.

Please check with your ISP if they plan to pass on the costs. It could turn out to be very expensive.

Chroma

markyboy7 wrote: »

I've just heard that many web-site owners are planning on charging ISP's using webwise for the use of their intellectual property.

They will base this on logging each individual visit of a webwise subscribed user. They can test this because webwise forges a cookie that pretends to come from their site and they can detect this.

What happens if the ISP's decide to pass on the costs to us users? Some of these costs are set to be very high.

The sites that charge will have to say so in their terms and conditions so once webwise is turned on I urge everyone to check the T&C's of every site they visit.

Please check with your ISP if they plan to pass on the costs. It could turn out to be very expensive.

I dont think this would be possable without having explicit informed consent by the users as they opt in to the webwise system.

the ISP would have to outline that the system not only watches everything your doing but also may incur charges from websites you visit.
Your ISP cant bill you additionaly without an entire new contract which must be agreed upon.

markyboy7

Chroma wrote: »

I dont think this would be possable without having explicit informed consent by the users as they opt in to the webwise system.

the ISP would have to outline that the system not only watches everything your doing but also may incur charges from websites you visit.
Your ISP cant bill you additionaly without an entire new contract which must be agreed upon.

But if they are getting charged for sites we visit, won't they just put their prices up then?

Dangle

markyboy7 wrote: »

But if they are getting charged for sites we visit, won't they just put their prices up then?

I would imagine that the ISP will block their users from accessing sites that charge the ISP, unless the ISP is certain that it would not have to pay up when it goes to court.

I'd expect once they find out about Phorm, many webmasters will not be happy with these ISPs profittering from their website's copyrighted content, and will block the customers of these ISPs from accessing their sites, or at very least block those that have opted-in. One webmaster that runs a number of sites has told me that once the trials start, this is exactly what he intends to do.

If one webmaster is successful in collecting payment from an ISP that deploys Phorm then I'd think that practice is likely to become common-place and Phorm users would end up with rather restricted internet access - I guess that would make the ISP more likely to offer discounts though.

DatabaseError

markyboy7 wrote: »

I've just heard that many web-site owners are planning on charging ISP's using webwise for the use of their intellectual property.

Please quote a reputable source, looks a little unlikely to me as many sites contain adverts, for which they are paid 'per click', charging ISPs to access the sites will force ISPs to consider blocking the sites, thereby reducing their possible ad revenue.

I use firefox with adblock and filterset G, so I very rarely see any online ads, though I'm told (by others) that they're there, I also use an ISP which has clearly stated it has no intention of having anything to do with phorm, my interest in phorm comes from my "give 'em an inch" mentality, I can see it becoming very, very invasive in 3-5 years, it needs nipping in the bud.

markyboy7

tonyhague wrote: »

Please quote a reputable source, looks a little unlikely to me as many sites contain adverts, for which they are paid 'per click', charging ISPs to access the sites will force ISPs to consider blocking the sites, thereby reducing their possible ad revenue.

I use firefox with adblock and filterset G, so I very rarely see any online ads, though I'm told (by others) that they're there, I also use an ISP which has clearly stated it has no intention of having anything to do with phorm, my interest in phorm comes from my "give 'em an inch" mentality, I can see it becoming very, very invasive in 3-5 years, it needs nipping in the bud.

Tony

The system to protect the intellectual property rights of web site owners is being developed now. I'll post further details in the next few days.

The invasive nature of phorm/webwise is not so much the ads (easy to block) but how they get the information to target the ads to you. Essentially, the ISP allows them to put a wiretap on your internet connection. This is almost certainly illegal under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act unless all parties agree to the interception. That is the user at home and the web-site owner. This agreement has to be by informed consent to opt-in.

The technology being deployed can do anything. Phorm's patents prove that.

OF1975

markyboy7 wrote: »

That's a really good question. The best thing to do, I would have thought, would be to ring your ISP and ask them. Tell them your concerns about webwise and you don't want to be locked into any new contract because of it.

Someone told me to really check the terms and conditions well. Smell a rat if you see anything about 'sending your data overseas'. Lots of ISP's change the T&C's on the web knowing you will never look.

They certainly won't want people leaving when they have the chance to make so much money out of them.

If you are tied to a contract now, but are looking for a way out, I think you can use any significant changes in the T&C's as a reason to walk away without penalty.

Thanks for that really useful reply. I am relieved to know that I should be able to get out of my contract because of the changes in the T&C's once this Phorm/Webspies gets rolled-out although I shouldn't have to change ISP just to protect my privacy.