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  • dacouch
    dacouch Posts: 21,637
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    Your not reading the advice I'm giving you, I'm trying to help you.

    The principles of non disclosure are was the non disclosure innocent AND would the Insurer have Insured you in the first place if they had been given the correct information. Both of these issues have to be addressed for you to have any chance of succeding.

    If you cannot fulfill the above questions the only chance you have are winning are Highway paying up to avoid the fee the Ombudsman winning or the media becoming involved and Highway paying as an exgratia for good press coverage
  • dzug1
    dzug1 Posts: 13,535
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    PollyLL wrote: »
    The fact is that I manage let properties for a living. It's immaterial whether I own them or not. Does it matter if really the lenders own them and I'm just the pig in the middle between the bank and the tenants.

    Obviously to some insurers it does.
  • PollyLL
    PollyLL Posts: 38 Forumite
    edited 24 November 2009 at 3:06PM
    dacouch wrote: »
    Your not reading the advice I'm giving you, I'm trying to help you.

    The principles of non disclosure are was the non disclosure innocent AND would the Insurer have Insured you in the first place if they had been given the correct information. Both of these issues have to be addressed for you to have any chance of succeding.

    If you cannot fulfill the above questions the only chance you have are winning are Highway paying up to avoid the fee the Ombudsman winning or the media becoming involved and Highway paying as an exgratia for good press coverage

    I've read it thanks. Have you read the caption from the Ombudsman? Important points in bold:

    innocent
    Customers act in good faith if their non-disclosure is made innocently. This may happen because the question is unclear or ambiguous, or because the relevant information is not something that they should reasonably know. In these cases, the insurer will not be able to ‘avoid’ the contract and (subject to the policy terms and conditions) should pay the claim in full.

    Ambiguous: My role could be stated in several different ways as I've demonstrated in this thread.

    Unclear: I did what go compare instructed, started typing in and selected from their list.

    Relevant info not known: that Highway don't insure landlords but do insure other possible related occupational titles.
  • dacouch
    dacouch Posts: 21,637
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    So your arguement now is the question on what your occupation is unclear.

    This arguement does not normally succeed as the question on what is your occupation is fairly standard throughout the industry and a similar question is used by all Insurers.

    When assessing your complaint the Ombudsman will normally take into account that in your case you have the intelligence to run a portfolio of properties so must be of average or above average intelligence. They may also ask you what occupation / business you put on your tax return is or your mortgage applications

    The ombudsman will look at the questions you were asked and any other information you were supplied with for instance the Terms and Conditions you ticked that you had read that contained the following.

    Your responsibilities

    We will provide you with a quotation based on the information you have provided to us. It is essential that all information and answers are true and accurate and that you also disclose all relevant facts. If you do not provide accurate information and disclose all relevant facts this could lead to your insurance being invalid and claims may not be paid. If your insurance is invalid, you could also be liable for any third party costs in the event of an accident.



    https://www.gocompare.com/about/terms-quoteprocess.aspx?popup=1&BrandID=6112007

    For the record there have historically been Insurers who do not like eg apply a load to or decline to offer cover to for Landlords and /or Property Developers (And other occupations). This was because in the past a high percentage of these type of people were seen as a Moral Hazard eg they were dodgy. Whilst in recent years property landlords and property developers are now rarely dodgy there are still some Insurers who have not changed the way they perceive these occupations (And other occupations).

    Someone who is a "Property Manager" in the "Property Letting" Industry would normally be someone who manages a single or multiple properties on behalf of the actual property owner / residents association or manages rental properties for a letting agent.

    You mention in a previous post that you refer to yourself as a Property Manager to friends etc as it's easier than saying Landlord. This would indicate to me that you are aware you are a landlord.

    Insurers do not generally like Casino owners or Bookmakers, putting yourself in as a Property Manager is akin to a Bookmaker putting their job in as a betting shop cashier eg an employee rather than the actual proprietor.

    Placing your complaint solely on the facts the non disclosure was innocent and the question was ambiguous is not a good stratagy. All Ombudsman has to decide is whether the question was ambiguous, if they decide it was not then your whole arguement falls down. Your best stratagy would be for the non disclosure to have been innocent AND that Highway would have accepted you as a client if you had declared the correct occupation, you could also then through in that the question was abiguous

    No doubt you will take the information / advice I have posted here as confrontational and post an arguement back. You really need to take a deep breath and look at this from an indepedent view and read the advice you have been given. Putting forward arguements to an Insurer / Ombudsman that are not likely to succeed is not the way for you to win your case.
  • PollyLL
    PollyLL Posts: 38 Forumite
    dacouch wrote: »
    No doubt you will take the information / advice I have posted here as confrontational and post an arguement back. You really need to take a deep breath and look at this from an indepedent view and read the advice you have been given. Putting forward arguements to an Insurer / Ombudsman that are not likely to succeed is not the way for you to win your case.

    It's all goo d and nice, but at the end of the day I put down what I felt was appropriate, naturally from here on in I'll think landlord is appropriate, but before now the problem never crossed my mind and as I said already, it's unreasonable for me to be expected to know that Highway as a policy don't insure landlords.

    Simple. Innocent mistake. And yes, when I speak with mortgage brokers and my most recent mortgage application with Barclays just several weeks ago, I tell them I manage properties that I let out for a living. As we have a proper conversation face to face, it's quite clear I could also be called a landlord and the bank has no problem with it.
  • PollyLL
    PollyLL Posts: 38 Forumite
    I find it very interesting that this forum is the only place wher people are against me on this subject. Every single person I've spoken to has thought I was perfectly reasonable to state Property Manager/Property Lettings as my occupation/type of business.
  • dacouch
    dacouch Posts: 21,637
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    You have come on to a forum that most of the answers are provided by Insurance Professionals. By not bowing down and agreeing with you we have been able to give you the actual facts and links on how to put your case forward correctly and also give you a view on how the Insurers and Ombudsman will view your arguements.

    The posters on this thread take pride in answering the queries as accurately as possible to the best of their knowledge. If we had just agreed with you that you had done nothing wrong you would not have received good advice. I think you will find as you go through the process of the complaint you will reflect that the advice given in this thread is actually accurate.
  • dacouch
    dacouch Posts: 21,637
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    PollyLL wrote: »
    I find it very interesting that this forum is the only place wher people are against me on this subject. Every single person I've spoken to has thought I was perfectly reasonable to state Property Manager/Property Lettings as my occupation/type of business.

    Here is Wikipedia's explanation of a Property Manager

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_manager

    here is another

    http://www.ehow.co.uk/facts_5024372_definition-property-manager.html

    Bear in mind the Insurers and Ombudsman will look into the duties of a Property Manager and a Landlord. Here are google returns on Property Manager

    http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&q=property+manager+definition&meta=cr%3DcountryUK|countryGB&aq=f&oq=property+manager+definition&fp=4aad3bc6abb93df5

    and job duties of a Property Manager

    http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&cr=countryUK|countryGB&q=property+manager+job+duties&revid=2132569221&ei=kCEMS6WXNoWOjAe_hvXTAw&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=2&ved=0CCwQ1QIoAQ&fp=4aad3bc6abb93df5
  • PollyLL
    PollyLL Posts: 38 Forumite
    dacouch wrote: »

    Interesting links. I went off and got one myself. As I said, I'm Australian and the word landlord isn't as widely used in Australia. The preferred term is Property Investor. Here is a link to a Reserve Bank of Australia document about Property Investors. Using the computer to search the document, the word landlord isn't used once in the document.

    http://www.rba.gov.au/PublicationsAndResearch/Bulletin/bu_may04/bu_0504_2.pdf

    Just an example of my mentality and I'm sure you'll reply that I should do in Rome as the Romans do.
  • dacouch
    dacouch Posts: 21,637
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    You cannot use this as an arguement with the Insurer or the Ombudsman either.

    Out of interest Landlord seems to be in fairly everyday use in Australia

    http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=landlord&meta=&aq=f&oq=landlord&fp=2c744f47aab57b72

    http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=landlord+responsibilities&revid=643111401&ei=1V8MS9SrMsj84AaQ_biNBA&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=3&ved=0CEUQ1QIoAg&fp=2c744f47aab57b72

    http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=landlord+insurance&meta=cr%3DcountryAU&aq=&oq=landlord+insurance&fp=2c744f47aab57b72

    http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=landlord+definition&meta=cr%3DcountryAU&aq=1&oq=landlord+de&fp=2c744f47aab57b72


    Once again for you to succeed in overturning the decision you either have to demonstrate the question is badly worded / ambiguous which is very unlikely as it is used throughout the industry and there have been people who have argued against it and lost. Or your better option is to demonstrate Highway would have accepted you as a client if you had declared you were a landlord and the non disclosure was innocent.

    It is not sufficient for you to just demonstrate it was innocent.
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