NPower gas 'sculpting'

Anne3333

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Sterling

Cardew wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling
Edit – Of course you could select a “year” anywhere within the time you were within Npower, as Cardew has done by looking at say Feb to Feb, and chose the one that gives the biggest payback. However, I am not entirely convinced that this is a legitimate strategy

Sterling,
Why would it not be a legitimate strategy?

Npower stated 4,572 per year.

A year is a 12 month period which surely can start on any one of 365 days?

When do you believe a 'year' should start?

What you say makes a great deal of sense. Indeed, I am unable to fault your logic as such. Furthermore, you are almost certainly right. My only concern is that if Npower allows a claimant to go to a court hearing rather than stump up a “goodwill payment” as usual, we need to ensure that the claimant is on solid ground.

If a claimant claims a loss (here – due to being overcharged by Npower) the calculation of that loss (I assume) must be based on a fair and reasonable interpretation of the contract. True, Npower’s wording indicates (as you say) a year beginning on any date. But is that a fair and reasonable interpretation of the contract? I believe it is. My concern is that I can’t say for certain if a court would agree.

After all, a court might feel that it was never envisaged that a customer would be able to wander around freely amongst the possible dates available to him and select the most advantageous. I don’t think this is very likely, but …well there you have it …that is my lingering doubt.

Of course, it can easily be overcome by putting two alternative methods of calculating the claim, on the court documentation, and allow the court to decide. The dismal conduct of Npower in all of this would, I suspect be taken into account in that decision, and the higher loss figure would be accepted.

I also believe that any claim should also include a reasonable assessment for the claimant’s time and effort spent in having to fathom out such an unnecessarily complicated charging method (and the overcharging by too many high tier units) as well as coping with Npower’s denials and dubious excuses on the way to court. In many cases, this element of the claim may well exceed the amount overcharged.

DirectDebacle

Some interesting views being expressed here. This is a money saving site and so the posts should be purely objective. I for one, on this issue, cannot be that objective.

As a long and loyal customer of npower I was annoyed to find that I had been overcharged. At the time I thought it was a simple billing error and that it would be put right with a quick phone call. As time went on and npower ignored me, then lied to me, treated me like an idiot and eventually drove me to litigation did I become less objective. You bet I did.

My stance (having had my claim met) is one of principle. I have no further financial interest in this matter. However I would like to help others avoid being treated in the way I, and many others were and of course to get their money back.

I can fully understand cheated customers, for a variety of reasons, not wishing to purue a small claim of £7 or whatever. It sticks in my craw that this is one of many reasons npower at the moment are keeping much of their ill gotten gains. 100,000 £7 claims is nearly as much as a bankers (or energy execs?) pension for a year.

I would never suggest to anyone seeking advice in this forum not to bother pursuing a claim because it is only a small one in monetary terms. The lies, deceit and subterfuge employed to cheat a customer are exactly the same whatever the amount.

I see my input as helping people in establishing if they have a claim and advising them how to make it. Whether they pursue it or not is a matter for them.

I wonder what the reaction would have been if Ofgem had ruled that npower had failed to notify customers of changes and as a result of that some customers were charged more than they should have been. However as it was only a small amount they would overlook it on this occasion.

Deciding on when a 'year' for a claim should start has been discussed on several occasions over the life of this thread. My view has always been that it should be on 1st April. This is based on the fact that the two tier pricing system was introduced on 1/4/2003. It seems to me to be that the 1st April of any year is the logical date to choose. This date cannot be used by every claimant so a date has to be decided upon for an individuals claim.

At the time this 'sculpting' was in progress the terms and conditions contained no definition of a year. It was only in June of 2008 that the terms and conditions defined it as 'any continuous period of 12 months'. Prior to this definition npower were attempting to manipulate the period of a year to any date that suited them e.g. the 'tariff year'. npower deliberately left a year open to interpretation as a means of justifying charging more than they were entitled of the Primary Block. Under those circumstances I think it reasonable and legitimate for a claimant to choose a year that would be most advantageous to them.

If that is illegitimate then what is legitimate?

Calculating the value of an overcharge. In my case using the start date of 1st April the 4572 maximum was achieved around 22nd December 2007. Therefore the overcharged units were charged between then and 31st March. Prices were increased on 4th January. For ease of calculation I calculated all of the overcharged units at the new rate. I could have been more precise. It would have made little difference to my claim which was totally disputed by npower in any event.

Remember that my claim included breach of contract and so there was an additional claim of all my gas bills to be recalculated from 1/4/2003 at the price in effect on 31/3/2003.

The Ofgem ruling has endorsed my claim that the lack of notification was a breach of contract. I see no reason why every claim should not include this element to it except for one very good reason. As a general rule, if a claim falls in the period between Nov 2006 and April 2008 then recalculating gas bills at old prices will reduce your claim as it will knock out the price reduction in May 2007. Careful calculation of bills with the appropriate price changes need to be made. I was lucky that in my case it was a no brainer.

There is no case law or legal precedent in any of this at the moment. However a claim is conducted is a matter for the individual and cannot be judged as wrong. We may have our own opinions on what is the best way but they are still only opinions.

Until such time as there is an official and thorough investigation into this matter then we can only act as individuals. I am thankful for forums and threads such as these and will continue to try to put as much into it as I have got out of it.

Cardew

DD/Sterling,
I used the year starting in Feb for ease of calculation, but starting it on April 1st(appropriate!!) surely maximises the overcharging.

Any 12 month period that covers the period in 2007 when 'sculpting' was suspended produces an overcharge.

So the discussion is not if you were charged for more than 4572 units, but for how many extra units you were charged.

Cardew

Just a further point on going to court as discussed above.

My understanding is that if you make a claim(as did DD) and NPower meet that claim in full - including costs etc -(as they did with DD) then the Small Claims Court will have no further interest and refuse to listen to the case.

In effect what is required is a 'class action' as practiced in the USA.

To get a court ruling that might act as a precedent, will require high court action, with appeals etc and that is serious money!!

As Npower stand to lose many £millions, you can be certain they will throw a battery of lawyers at the case.

IMO ofgem are the key here.

shoopshoop

Hi all,

I have been quiet for a while pending a reply from npower over my refund claim. (For a while I didn't think I was going to get one - according to Royal mail's track & trace, my letter is still at my local P.O.!!)

Well, I am pleased to say that I have been refunded in full with the expected 'without admission of liability', 'goodwill' etc.

I claimed £50 + VAT overcharge, £50 upset, time & effort and a bit more for stationery.

I must admit I was with Agrajag, on whether it was worth the hassle, but now I can say it is. I couldn't have done it without DD and the moral support of those on this thread.

Thank you all so much!

radman_2

Hi,

Okay, I wrote a letter to nPower about my gas sculpting and I've had the standard response, including a description of how my bills are calculated, blah blah blah...

From reading other messages on here, I gather that the best next step is to contact "Executive Complaints", but I can't seem to find a posting detailing how to contact them. Could anyone help me out please?

Thanks,

Adam.

DirectDebacle

Cardew wrote: »

DD/Sterling,
I used the year starting in Feb for ease of calculation, but starting it on April 1st(appropriate!!) surely maximises the overcharging.

Any 12 month period that covers the period in 2007 when 'sculpting' was suspended produces an overcharge.

So the discussion is not if you were charged for more than 4572 units, but for how many extra units you were charged.

Yes starting the year 1/3 gives the maximum high rate units at 6822

If you joined 2/5/06 and left 1/5/07 there would be a 14 high units overcharge.


I looked at my bills for this period. In actual fact the bills covered 18/5/06-25/5/07. During this perod there were three price alterations.

Start prices were 3.968 and 2.068 increased 1/10/06 to 4.412 and 2.492 then changed in May to 4.412 and 1.915.

Over this period I used 4687 tier 1 and 23911 tier 2

£2.87 overcharge. Would I have claimed this amount? No. Not worth the effort.

As mentioned in my previous post it is worth considering the breach of contract and claiming a bill recalc.

For this period I was billed by npower for £778.81.

A recalc of the total billing period at the 18/5/06 price = £680.46

My claim is now a total of £101.22 plus VAT. Would I claim this amount? Yep.

DirectDebacle

radman wrote: »

Hi,

I gather that the best next step is to contact "Executive Complaints", but I can't seem to find a posting detailing how to contact them. Could anyone help me out please?

Thanks,

Adam.

Not sure if this still up to date.

Npower
Eighth Avenue
Team Valley
Gateshead
Tyne & Wear
NE11 0SX

Tel. 0800 3161492
Fax 0191 4482660

DirectDebacle

shoopshoop wrote: »

Hi all,

I have been quiet for a while pending a reply from npower over my refund claim. (For a while I didn't think I was going to get one - according to Royal mail's track & trace, my letter is still at my local P.O.!!)

Well, I am pleased to say that I have been refunded in full with the expected 'without admission of liability', 'goodwill' etc.

I claimed £50 + VAT overcharge, £50 upset, time & effort and a bit more for stationery.

I must admit I was with Agrajag, on whether it was worth the hassle, but now I can say it is. I couldn't have done it without DD and the moral support of those on this thread.

Thank you all so much!

If I am reading this correctly you got over £100.00 off them? Well done. I am really pleased for you.