NPower gas 'sculpting'

Sterling

DirectDebacle wrote: »

I would never suggest to anyone seeking advice in this forum not to bother pursuing a claim because it is only a small one in monetary terms.

I agree with you entirely; and I don’t believe that was what I said. It certainly wasn’t the impression I meant to give. I believe that every normal claim should be pursued against Npower with the utmost vigor no matter how small the claim (as a matter of principle). I would like to see that company swamped with claims if only as a warning to all suppliers that people power can work even if Ofgem doesn’t.

However Agrajag’s case is rather different from the norm. I refer to my statement to him … “However, over the whole period you were with Npower I calculate you would normally have been billed for a total of 8906 high tier units, whereas for some reason you were only charged for 7882”.

My concern in his particular case was that if he went gunning for a refund, Npower might send him a revised bill which included the missing 1024 high tier units (not previously billed). He would then have to pay this and then seek to recover it as part of his claim against Npower. That is why I simply felt (and wrote) that in all the circumstances of his particular case it might be better to leave well alone.I certainly don’t want posters going backwards before going forwards – at least certainly not without knowing about it beforehand. Since I wrote that post Agrajag has posted that he intends to write to Npower anyway, and that he will keep us informed.

Following on from Cardew’s point (#979) - it is a question of trial and error to find out the best start date for a ‘year’ unless the prices have stayed constant throughout; which they don’t. Looking again at Agrajag’s figures, if he chooses a year 03/04/07 to 0//04/08, I calculate he has been overcharged by 935 high tier units. These of course can be treated a being part of the 1941 units arising after the price increase of 04/01/08. The difference on the unit prices then became 2.722 pence, giving a claim of £26.72 (incl VAT). I haven’t yet had chance to see if this is the maximum claim.

DirectDebacle

I am pleased we agree with the principle of making a claim and I too would love to see npower swamped with them. As a side issue small claims can be put to the Energy Ombudsman. If they investigate then there is an automatic levy of £300.00 per claim made upon npower. A few thousand £2.00 claims investigated by the Ombudsman would be nice.

Agrajags' claim is not a good example to refer to as you correctly point out there are several differences to the usual claim. You do raise a matter which is worth discussing though.

However, over the whole period you were with Npower I calculate you would normally have been billed for a total of 8906 high tier units, whereas for some reason you were only charged for 7882”.

Npower used a similar argument in their defence of my claim. They stated that, 'From 1/4/03 to 30/9/04 (18 months) the Claimant received gas under a Flat charging structure. At the charging rate of 4572 units per annum the maximum quantity of units that the Defendant was entitled to charge for this period of 18 months at the Primary block rate was 6858 (being 18/12 months x 4572). The Defendant actually charged the Claimant for only 6855 units at the Primary Block rate.'

They repeated this argument for the period 1/10/2004 to 30/9/2006 (24 months) This was under a seasonally adjusted weighted charging structure. They claimed they were entitled to charge 9144 Primary Block units for this period of 24 months (24/12 x 4572). They continued this argument for other periods of my claim.
What they were doing, without using the term, was explaining their charges within a 'tarrif' year. They increased prices on 1/10/2004 and changed from a flat rate structure to a seasonally weighted one and restarted the Primary Block count.

Had this case been heard then I would have sought to show that this argument was flawed.

First the contract was for no more than 4572 Primary Block units per annum.
Therefore they were not entitled to charge any Primary Block units for an 18 month, 24 month or any other period more than a year.

Secondly in the unlikely event of a court accepting that a 'tarrif' year was a valid accounting tool I would have argued this.

If 1/4/2003-30/9/2004 is a year or 'tariff' year then I have still been overcharged. The contract states no more than 4572 per annum (or tariff year if you like) yet you have charged me 6855 units for that year. The same argument to the 24 month 'year' of 1/10/2004-30/9/2006. They charged me 'only 9143' units. I would have argued it should have been 4572.

For the above reasons I do not think you need have had any concerns over Agrajag being backbilled for Primary Block units that were charged at the Follow-On rate. I assume you are not suggesting that the total amount of units he was charged while with npower was undercharged. That would be a very different matter to npower wrongly apportioning the correct amount of kWh on a bill to the tier 1 and tier 2 prices.

Npower are not obliged or required to charge 4572 per annum. They simply cannot charge more than this amount. If, for reasons best known to themselves, they choose to charge less than this amount over a year or bill then that is a matter for them.

This is where establishing the start date for a claim is important. For the time Agrajag was with npower then I would say that 1st April is the logical point to start. It dovetails perfectly with the start date of two tier pricing and gives more or less the maximum amount to claim back.

It makes it very difficult for npower to argue their 'tariff' year claim or even use 'any continuous period of 12 months' which for the purposes of this issue is too fluid for my liking.

The 1st April should be good for most claimants. Claimants who joined npower after 1st April 2007 will need to use their starting date. Those who joined after 31st August,2007 are unlikely to have a claim.

meggsy

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Not sure if this still up to date.

Npower
Eighth Avenue
Team Valley
Gateshead
Tyne & Wear
NE11 0SX

Tel. 0800 3161492
Fax 0191 4482660

Or radman could use The Times template letter and amend it as I did
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/consumer_affairs/article4957384.ece

northernstar5

Did anyone else get a gas statement around 3 May 2007 which had estimated charges for the next 12 months, showing 4563 kwh at the higher price (primary units)?
Cos this is after the date npower claim they changed to a different way of billing primary units.

If this has already been discussed - which number post is it in? Thanks

Sterling

DirectDebacle wrote: »

I assume you are not suggesting that the total amount of units he was charged while with npower was undercharged. That would be a very different matter to npower wrongly apportioning the correct amount of kWh on a bill to the tier 1 and tier 2 prices.

DD – You may rest assured that you assume correctly – I was referring to the high tier units being billed, not actual gas consumption. In fact come the day when from just looking at my spreadsheet I can tell Agrajag’s actual gas consumption (or anyone else for that matter) I will sell the whole kit and caboodle to the energy companies for a shed load of money; out of which I will personally fund Cardew’s “class action”; and incidentally I’m absolutely sure we have such legal proceedings here in the UK as well as the USA – when I say absolutely sure, that would be my final answer, unless I can phone a friend or ask the audience.

Northernstar5 (#989) – I for one haven’t seen any such statement. Is there any chance you could post a copy of the blurb you mention on here (after blanking out anything specific to you)?

Agrajag

OK I am treating this as a mathematical puzzle now. If I get a suitable claim out of it later, so be it.

Having spreadsheeted all my numbers, it appears clear that from Nov 2007 onwards, the sculpting matches the 'current' profile (as confirmed by Sterling and DD)
However I am trying to work out how it works before then

Sterling/DD. The figures you give for my expected units per bill (1796,871,655,905,479,1057,1202,1438,503):
I get Nov 2007 onwards as the 'current' sculpted profile (Though I note that you and NPOWER both explicitly do NOT round as specified in the 'How to work out your gas bill' pdf).
May to Oct 2007 (inclusive) you use a fixed 8.33%
I think I can tell you used approx 12.2% for March and 9.8% for April, but I cannot extract Dec-Feb because my bills do not overlap suitably
Where do you get the figures you use for these calculations?

Looking further into this I can match each of my bills if I use the following maxima:
Month,percentage,Max Units
Dec-06,?,?
Jan-07,?,?
Feb-07,?,?
Mar-07,12.0%,549
Apr-07,10.3%,471
May-07,7.1%,325
Jun-07,4.2%,192
Jul-07,2.4%,110
Aug-07,2.4%,110
Sep-07,4.2%,192
Oct-07,7.3%,334
Nov-07,19.30%,882
Dec-07,19.30%,882
Jan-08,19.30%,882
Feb-08,19.30%,882
Mar-08,5.94%,272
Apr-08,5.93%,271
(still cannot resolve the monthly differences between dec 2006 to feb 2007 because I have only one bill for then)

You may recognise the May to Oct numbers . Those appear to be the 'old' profile before NPOWER changed to fixed for most of you in May 2007
(picked up from DD's Ofgem post http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=19397089#post19397089)
I note that numbers for March and April I get are slightly different from those I think Stering and DD used. I don't whether this is a real difference, or a concatenation of many rounding errors.

So it looks like I was on one sculpted profile untill Nov2007 when they switched to the new one. Without telling me
Usefully during the entire time I was with them there was NO 12 month period when I was charged only 4572 T1 units. So I will be interested how they respond.
It varies from a minumum excess of 425 (value £6.76 + Vat) from 02/12/2006 to 02/12/2007
to a maximum of 1148 (value £20.02 +Vat) from 22/02/2007 to 22/02/2008

Agrajag

shoopshoop wrote: »

Hi all,

I have been quiet for a while pending a reply from npower over my refund claim. (For a while I didn't think I was going to get one - according to Royal mail's track & trace, my letter is still at my local P.O.!!)

Well, I am pleased to say that I have been refunded in full with the expected 'without admission of liability', 'goodwill' etc.

I claimed £50 + VAT overcharge, £50 upset, time & effort and a bit more for stationery.

I must admit I was with Agrajag, on whether it was worth the hassle, but now I can say it is. I couldn't have done it without DD and the moral support of those on this thread.

Thank you all so much!

Shoop, seeing as you metioned me...:rolleyes:
How did you go about claiming this. Did you conatct NPower first with a claim, and then escalate it to a threat (or actual filing?) to small claims court?

DirectDebacle

Agrajag wrote: »

OK I am treating this as a mathematical puzzle now. If I get a suitable claim out of it later, so be it.

I think I can tell you used approx 12.2% for March and 9.8% for April, but I cannot extract Dec-Feb because my bills do not overlap suitably
Where do you get the figures you use for these calculations?

I think from Dec 06 to Oct 07 this was your profile.

http://npower.com/web/At_home/customer_service/yourquestionsanswered/faq_understanding_my_prices

It is the current profile for the Tracker and Fixed Price 2009.
This profile is the same as the one introduced 1/10/04, which was used until the change to the Flat (8.33%) in May,2007.

Your first bill may be out for a number of reasons. As it was your first bill the number of days to be charged in December are 31-2+1. The first day of your bill is counted on the first bill. On subsequent bills it is not as it has already been counted in the previous bill. There are other possible reasons. I have several bills where the total kWh used calculated from meter readings (not estimates) has been out by a few kWh. I think the discrepencies are most likely to be a slight billing error as opposed to a different profile.
In any event for a claim you can only base it on what is on your bills compared to what the profile indicated it should have been. As your first bill is slightly under what it should have been (according to the profile I think was used) it does not adversely affect your claim.

Agrajag

Yep DD. Thanks for keeping interested.
The figures on that page (with the 1st day adjustment ) make my numbers almost add up. Close enough not to worry about.

So I was on the old profile until 1st Nov 2007, when I was switched to the new one. According to their rules I have been charged correctly. But according to the 4572 per year, I have been overcharged at some point.

If I had been kept on my old charging regime until the end of the contract, I would have paid £16.90 less.

So where do I stand? A simple claim to NPower? (I would not normally bother with this small amount for the hassle, but I feel I have invested a significant amount of time in this. If I had done this at work the charge would be around £500)
Will I be instantly fobbed off? Or instantly paid?:rolleyes:

DirectDebacle

Agrajag wrote: »

Shoop, seeing as you metioned me...:rolleyes:
How did you go about claiming this. Did you conatct NPower first with a claim, and then escalate it to a threat (or actual filing?) to small claims court?

Agrajag I would be minded to go for them full on. Health Warning. Do not rely on my figures. I make mistakes. Check them.

Along the lines of

Dear...

I was a customer of yours from 2/12/06-2/4/08.

I noticed the recent Ofgem ruling that you were in breach of contract in respect of fulfilling your obligations to notifying customers of changes to the way you charge for gas.

This prompted me to check my bills during the time I had my contract with you.

I make the following observations.

For the duration of the account a toatal of 33630kWh were billed.

This was split into 7927kWh charged at the Primary Block rate and 25703kWh
at the Follow On rate.

The respective costs incl. Vat were £314.93 and £574.71. Total £889.64.

Further analysis shows that from 1/4/2007-31/3/2008 (12 months) a total of 5571 Primary Block units were charged. The contract allows for a maximum of 4572 Primary Block units per annum. Therefore for that year I was charged 999 Primary Block rate units which should have been charged at the Follow On rate.

The seasonally adjusted weighting profiles you used through this period show that the maximum 4572 Primary Block units would have been reached on 16th February, 2008.

Using the prices effective as at 16/2/2008 I was overcharged by £28.55 incl. VAT.

I request an immediate refund of this amount.

Furthermore I received no notification of the change to the weighting profile which took place on 1/11/2007. You are now well aware that Ofgem have ruled that such changes are notifiable changes as required in the Terms and Conditions.

As I was given no opportunity to either accept or reject these changes then these changes should not have been applied to my account. Therefore all my gas should have been charged at the rate applicable on 31/10/2007. (amended from 1/4/2007)

Recalculating my gas usage from then to the end of my contract using that rate gives a total of £832.86. incl Vat. I was charged £889.64. incl. VAT.

The difference being £56.78.

Total refund requested: £85.33.

I request an immediate refund of this money.

(Now add in time, trouble money stamps worry stress a few pints for me and loads more for the thread etc to this.)

You have 14 working days to repay this debt.

If I have not received a satisfactory explanation as to why you do not owe me this money or you do not pay it then I will initiate recovery proceedings.
****************************************************

See where that gets you. You could add in that you know all the excuses they have previously come up with, they don't apply to your account and you don't want to hear them etc.