NPower gas 'sculpting'

reactor_3

savers_united wrote: »

Just to let everyone following this thread know, I have re calculated my bills and Npower have in fact overcharged me by 1800 extra kWh at the higher rate.
I have sent a letter to their customer relations team after being told on the phone that this practice was normal, which I know for a fact is not.

Will keep you all updated as soon as I get a response from them.

But it is normal practice for them to overcharge isn't it?
You are right when you say it is not normal practice for a firm to overcharge but it does seem to be normal practice for Npower to overcharge - their whole
system is designed to overcharge, so it is working 'normally'.
What I am saying is that what they consider 'normal practice' for them is, in my opinon illegal.

reactor_3

Cardew wrote: »

Not content with turning the rest of of the Gas and Electricity forum into the rant forum, esbo/iamesbo/reactor(whichever name he choses to use to post) is determined to pollute the most useful thread on MSE with more of his inane incoherent ramblings.

I am not being incoherent or ranting, I am just saying that I believe Npower to have behaved illegally. As you cannot prove that Npower have behaved legally you are reduced to trying to smear me to discredit what I am saying. You can't attack my arguement because you know you would lose so your tactic is to attack me personally to distract attention from the issue, a rather cheap and low down tactic I might add.
What also seem to be clear is that you appear to have some sort of vested interest in Npower and other gas companies overcharging in various ways.
It is hard to see why you would behave in this manner unless you have some kind of vested interest in the matter.
You try to portray me as someone having an unjustified 'rant' when in reality it is a widly held view, a similar view is held my industry experts and former gas watchdogs. and indeed the government to some extend, although they do benefit from more VAT the more the firms overcharge.

reactor_3

DirectDebacle wrote: »

In some respects I agree with your views on the legal issues. See my post # 747 which shows the action I took. If you have not already done so then you should consider expressing your concerns to the appropriate authority.

This is not a soapbox thread but one attempting to help those that have been overcharged to re-claim their loss. At first sight this seems a complex and confusing issue to deal with and is made more difficult by npowers approach. Widening the thread to criminal matters or the energy market in general will only add to the confusion. This may put potential claimants off and will therefore defeat the purpose of the thread.

My success, apart from being personally good for me, showed others that npower will meet claims in full. Hopefully claimants will be encouraged by this. Furthermore the cost to npower of meeting a claim is more than they received from the overcharge. That hits them where it hurts, in the balance sheet.

If this became a criminal enquiry and a prosecution followed it would probably be over a year before a court decided the matter.

A much quicker way is to follow the County Court procedure. It took me 6 months from start to finish and no doubt can be done quicker than that.

Actions speak louder than words and if you have any queries regarding your claim then I am sure somone on here will be able to help you.

What I think would help is a seperate 'sticky' thread detailing how to make a claim
against Npower as it is time consuming to gather that information from a 40 page thread. You appear to have claimed more than I would be claiming perhaps.
You seemed to have claimed such that you should only have paid the initial rates they charged and no increases (because they did not inform you of those increases?). I think I could only claim where they charged me more than the stated
~4600 units at the higher rate in a year.
Perhaps such a thread could be entitled:-
"Npower customers - How to reclaim money due to their overcharging for gas".

So I believe I will be able to claim where they charged me more than the specified units at the higher rate in a year, do you think I would be able to claim for more than that or do you believe that that part of your claim would only be applicable to you?

Cardew

reactor wrote: »

I am not being incoherent or ranting, I am just saying that I believe Npower to have behaved illegally. As you cannot prove that Npower have behaved legally you are reduced to trying to smear me to discredit what I am saying. You can't attack my arguement because you know you would lose so your tactic is to attack me personally to distract attention from the issue, a rather cheap and low down tactic I might add.
What also seem to be clear is that you appear to have some sort of vested interest in Npower and other gas companies overcharging in various ways.

It is self-evident that we all believe that NPower have acted illegally.

If you bothered reading this thread you will see loads of input from myself amongst many others with suggestions and support for Direct Debacle on the tactics he employed in taking NPower to court and getting them to settle; and we have also exchanged PMs for thoughts that are best not aired on the forum.

Yet once again we have your stupidity in accusing me of having some vested interest in Npower.

Direct Debacle has carried out the majority of the work here and provides assistance for anyone to claim against NPower.

Below are quotes addressed to you:

As things stand a debate over whether npower may have committed a criminal offence is neither here nor there.

This is not a soapbox thread but one attempting to help those that have been overcharged to re-claim their loss.

Until you discovered this thread, it consisted largely of constructive posts leading up to 'DD's victory'.

Now all we have is your rants of criminalty, police action, FSA being rubbish, Ofgem similar. Once people start reading your normal rants of "Jail em, bullet in the back of the head etc" they won't read on further.

Why not leave this thread alone just get on pursuing a claim against Npower and leave your ranting to all the other threads in the various names you use.

DirectDebacle

My claim was made up of two parts.

1. The actual amount in money of wrongly charged Primary Block units. Using (in my case) a 12 month year from 1st April-31st March this occurred in the years 2004/2005,2005/2006 and 2007/2008.

2. A continuous breach of contract from 1/4/2003 to the date in August 2008 when I switched suppliers.

It is my opinion that either of these two claims could be separately and independently made.

It is probable that a customer that joined npower in October 2004 and left anytime before May 2007 would not have been overcharged as at point 1 above. However they would likely be able to claim as at point 2. The issues are separate but connected.

Part. 1. is relatively easy to prove as it is based upon mathematical calculations of bills. It will apply to most, but not all, of gas customers. The amount of overcharging will vary from customer to customer depending on date of joining/leaving.

Part 2. Is a different story. I believe that this applies to virtually every gas customer npower has ever had from 1/4/2003-30/6/2008 at least. This is a pure contractual issue and would be a claim for breach of contract.

I have stated this several times before but to recap.

There are two sections of the terms and conditions which require the supplier to notify you in writing of changes to the way they charge for gas.

One refers to price increases and the other refers to the way they charge for gas. Both of these sections give the same course of action for the customer to take if the customer does not agree to them. They also state that if the customer does not agree, then providing certain conditions are met (switching supplier) they cannot be applied.

Without going into my arguments, which are set out in my Statement of Claim, I believe this would apply to all gas customers who joined npower on the relevant price plan. In a nutshell the contract was unlawful as the terms and conditions attached to it were not fully disclosed. This should apply to you and would enable you to claim all your gas be charged at the price you were given at the time you joined.

This is my opinion only. It has not, as far as I know, been tested in court or a ruling on it by any other body made. All I can say is that npower paid my claim in full rather than contest it at court.

There are hundreds of pages on this forum and elsewhere on how to make a county court claim. This is no different. It is a straightforward process. There is no need for another thread but feel free to start one if you wish.

My case papers are still available for download for anyone to refer to as a guide http://savefile.com/projects/808698866
All cases will not be the same so doing pro-forma type letters/forms would not be easy and I am not prepared to spend my time doing it.

As far as your claim in relation to Part 2. above goes:

If you feel at the time you joined npower you were made fully aware of seasonally adjusted weighting, how they would charge you for gas and were given the details of the method they used to calculate their bills. If it was made clear to you that a year was in fact their definition of a 'tariff year' and that meant a year could, for all practical purposes, be a period of any length they chose it to be. If you were aware and understood all of that then you do not have a claim. This applies to all affected customers.

If you were not aware of the above and it wasn't made clear to you at the time of entering into the contract then customers do have a claim.

DirectDebacle

I have no rights of ownership over this thread but I would like to make the following request.

Would you please confine posts to addressing the issue of 'sculpting', as this thread is entitled.

It is full of useful information from many contributors who collectively will have spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours gathering and sharing information. The thread itself is interesting in tracing the history of the unravelling of a confusing and initially complex web of deceit to where we are now. Where we are now is the beginning of some minor success by a few claimants.

I would not like to see this success strangled at birth by clashes from other threads spilling over on to this one.

At times this thread can be hard work so humour is welcome and offers light relief.

People will receive advice and assistance in understanding and conducting their claims. They cannot however expect to have someone do it for them. They should make the effort to familiarise themselves with the content of the thread. It might take a while but it will be nothing compared to the benefit they receive from the many hours of hard work that other contributors have put in.

Rant over.

On a positive note I think The Times will be doing another article on npower next Saturday. It will be following new claims arising from customers reading their last article. This is a definite rumour only.

Thank you.

DD

reactor_3

DirectDebacle wrote: »

My claim was made up of two parts.

1. The actual amount in money of wrongly charged Primary Block units. Using (in my case) a 12 month year from 1st April-31st March this occurred in the years 2004/2005,2005/2006 and 2007/2008.

2. A continuous breach of contract from 1/4/2003 to the date in August 2008 when I switched suppliers.

OK I understand part one in that they stated they would charge people for ~4500
units at the higher rate in a year, however they charge me the higher rate for more than ~4500 units.

I am a little less clear about part 2 which you describe as "A continuous breach of contract" but I am not sure you say precisely what the breach was.
I am asuming that what you mean is that they changed the method they used to charge you for gas, but did not inform you of this change as they were contracted to do and thus were in breach of contract. Is that the case or is that not the case?

Also you refer to the terms and conditions, where are these to be found?
OK I seem to have found them entitled 'Energy Supply contract' which I received
in September 2003

3) ...we may alter our prices and tell you of any price increases...
And:-

Terms of standard conection agreement
(10) ...any change which is approved will be anounce in at lest three national newspapers..

Are these what you are refering to?
I don't see anything related to "way they charge for gas." (quoting your post).

Also in section 15 of your statement of claim you state:-
"If the Court should find that the Defendant did not commit this breach on 1st April, 2003", that seems strange to me, should it not say :-
"If the Court should find that the Defendant did commit this breach on 1st April, 2003"?

Anyway it seems to me that it went something like this:-

You queried your charges wanting to get back £100 or so and then they said, trying to wriggle out of it, that they had changed the contract but just forgot to tell you about it. Then your comeback on that, was that if that was the case, then they were in breach of contract and thus owed you even more because you were holding them to the terms of the original contract and thus the original prices?

Just to add to all of that I have to my knowledge never been made aware of any
seasonal weighting or tariff years etc.... (untill very recently anyway).

Also I think I was only charged more than 4572 high rate units in the first year 9/2003 - 9/2004
However in the last year when I was only there for 6 months before I left I was charged nearly all the units at the higher rate which I think is wrong.
They never specified what method would be used, but charging me all my units at the higher rate seems unfair and I will try and make a claim of this.

Also I had been using a year of April to April in my calcualtions I now think this was wrong because I merely copied the period you used so I will recalculate everything using the date on which I joined as the start of the year, which may mean changes
to what I have said in the paragraph just above this one.

But finally I have to comeback to the legality of all this.
It is not like a case of me ordering 10 widgets from a firm and them failing to deliver
them (legal incompetence). To me it is a case of me ordering 10 widgets and them
charging me for 20. Futhermore it is not an acidental overcharging, it is done willfully and knowingly. To me that just seems like theft.

Fair enough if you don't agree on that but I am not trying to 'strangle the thread at birth' just, like you, trying to help people get their money back, one way or another.
Apart from anything else I think it puts more pressure on Npower to do the right thing - or else!!

One problem with this thread is that it is very long so I do think a briefer 'making a claim thread' might help where it gathers togeather just the information needed to make a claim without any futher distractions.
For example you have to download your statements, I think it would be better it
they we actually in a thread here on the site so the process is less complex.


Maybe I will try and do that myself but I am not sure what I will claim for yet,
ie for just the overcharge units or for the breach of contract bit.

Anyway I think I am a bit clearer on it all now. Also I left on 27/Nov/2007.

I am not trying to hijack the thread but I think some people will find it difficult to make a claim and I just don't like to see Npower 'getting away with it'
But anyway there is no rush, there is no time limit on it so I will make claim
and then address the criminial aspect of it (probably) later.

reactor_3

Cardew wrote: »

It is self-evident that we all believe that NPower have acted illegally.

If you bothered reading this thread you will see loads of input from myself amongst many others with suggestions and support for Direct Debacle on the tactics he employed in taking NPower to court and getting them to settle; and we have also exchanged PMs for thoughts that are best not aired on the forum.

Yet once again we have your stupidity in accusing me of having some vested interest in Npower.

Direct Debacle has carried out the majority of the work here and provides assistance for anyone to claim against NPower.

Below are quotes addressed to you:



Until you discovered this thread, it consisted largely of constructive posts leading up to 'DD's victory'.

Now all we have is your rants of criminalty, police action, FSA being rubbish, Ofgem similar. Once people start reading your normal rants of "Jail em, bullet in the back of the head etc" they won't read on further.

Why not leave this thread alone just get on pursuing a claim against Npower and leave your ranting to all the other threads in the various names you use.

My problem with you is that whenever I say anything negative about the gas companies you accuse me of 'ranting', yet many other people make similar claims
and you do not personally attack them in this way.
And in your own words "My gut feeling is that Ofgem will fudge the issue" which is
criticism of OFGEM so why do you attack me when I make similar, perhaps more strongly expressed words?
You are like a 'ball on chain' on my leg whenever I make any criticism of these gas companies here, so I think it is reasonable I think you have a vested interest in the gas companies otherwise why else would you be doing it?
I have not said ""Jail em, bullet in the back of the head etc" in this
thread all I have said is I think Npower have acted illegally which is a widely held view. It is you in my opinion who is draggnig the thread down with your constant attacks on me trying to discredit me so why don't you just stop it? If you were not constantly making personal attacks on me and dragging other issues in I would not have to defend them here.

And yes I do have problems with bodies government watchdogs such as the FSA and OFGEM,
saying "Let's wait until OFGEM have looked into the matter" to me sounds a bit like, don't get alarmed
we have the trusty Child Support Agency looking into the matter. After the recent 'Baby P' case
I think my distrust of such governement agencys is more than justified.

1carminestocky

Nice post, reactor. And I agree with what you say. Cardew just can't help being a virual bully (I'm suspecting that's as far as his aggression goes, I doubt he'd say the things he says on here to anyone's face). I'm on his ignore list but he still feels the need to put the virtual boot in frequently. Just try and realise what he's going through at the moment (he has property in the US and holds UK bank shares :eek: ) and be as sympathetic as possible.;)

DirectDebacle

You are correct with your understanding of the breach of contract.

Also in section 15 of your statement of claim you state:-
"If the Court should find that the Defendant did not commit this breach on 1st April, 2003", that seems strange to me, should it not say :-
"If the Court should find that the Defendant did commit this breach on 1st April, 2003"?

This is from paragraph 16 not 15 and you have only quoted part of a sentence from it and is therefore out of context. If you read the complete paragraph it should be clear to you what it means. I posted my Statement of Claim because I thought it might be useful. Not as a template to be copied.


I think you should start a 'Making a Claim' thread as this one does not seem to meet your requirements.