NPower gas 'sculpting'

DirectDebacle

You're suggesting I ask them for two things: recalulation of all my bills since April 2003 based on March 2003 prices. My understanding from your statement of claim is that the reason for that is that Npower didn't properly serve notice of the new two-tier charging structure, is that right? Secondly you say I should request a refund of overcharged units since 1/4/2003. I don't understand how I can ask for both: if (ha!) they did apply the March 2003 prices to my later bills that would compensate me for overcharged units since 1/4/2003 wouldn't it?

I understand what you are saying. It appears you are having two bites of the cherry. I considered this myself and rationalised it this way.

Scenario 1.

From your meter readings lets say the total No. of your units over 5 years is 120000kWh. and you paid £3000. High units £1000 and Low £2000. You recalculate your bills and find there has been an overcharge of £100. The overcharge does not come from being charged for extra units but from charging some of the 120000 units at the wrong rate. There is no other issue with the bills or contract, it is simple mis-calculation. You get your £100 refunded. End of story.

Scenario 2.

Same billing period and figures. Bills are correct and no overcharging. However you spot that terms and conditions have been in continuous breach since 1/4/2003. The breach is failing to notify of changes to charging methodology and you say if you had known of them you would have not agreed and switched supplier. Now all gas (120000kWh) has to be recalculated to the date before the first breach occured ie 30/3/2003 in your case. Difference is refunded. End of story.

Scenario 3

You are overcharged as in scenario 1. Another npower customer over the same period uses exactly the same gas as you but is not overcharged. You have paid £100 more for the same gas. Down the road npower realise they breached their terms and conditions and recalc all gas from 1/3/2003. You and the other npower customer receive exactly the same refund for 120000kWh gas but you have still paid £100.00. more.

Scenario 4.

This was my claim which in reality is two separate claims, though they are joined. It is the combination of scenarios 1 & 2. I regard it as two separate sets of overcharging. The first is all gas (scenario 2) has been charged at the wrong rate. The second is that additional overcharging occurred on some of that gas. In the example refunding the overcharging of £100 on some of the 120000kWh puts you in scenario 2. It is possible that due to inaccurate billing some customers could have been undercharged for 120000kWh but would still receive a full refund on the price difference. The recalc would be a paper excercise. I cannot imagine millions of bills would be individually recalculated as I did with mine and you are about to do with yours.

I used this analogy:

Cooking apples are 10p ea. and eating apples are 5p ea.
You buy 10 cookers and 20 eaters = £2.00

You check the receipt and find you have been charged £2.25. You were charged for 15 cookers and 15 eaters.

They then rectify this and refund you the 25p.
You notice a sign which says 'All apples 3p'. You point this out and they refund another £1.10 as 30 apples should have cost 90p.

No doubt people will jump on here rebutting that argument but it is how I see it and npower paid it.

This is unknown territory but I would argue that scenario 2 could apply to every gas customer npower has ever had from 1/4/2003, irrespective of whether they were overcharged through weighting or not. Until npower fully disclose their charging methods I would argue they are in breach of the T&C's. Up until now I do not believe they have.

The difference between this and the bank charges case is that the issue of bank charges being in breach of terms and conditions and therefore illegal was not the dispute. The objection to them was that they were unfair. With npower it is a clear challenge to the legality of their interpretation of the terms and conditions. I can only argue from a commonsense point of view and not a legal one. They are not always the same. However it was an argument npower were not prepared, in my case, to enter into.

Paragraphs 13-15 of my claim refer directly to paragraphs 5-8 of their defence and also their method of calculating Primary Block units which is not referred to in their statement of defence. My argument is that this information should be in the T&Cs and as it wasn't, introducing these changes were a breach of the T&Cs as it put customers at a significant disadvantage.

First things first. Get some sort of claim in to npower covering both aspects of your claim. They need to be informed of the claim a.s.a.p. You will state that you have only just discovered the discrepancies on your bills which is why your claim is being made now. If necessary, later on, this will serve to illustrate the deviousness of their deception by failing to properly notify customers of changes and how they were applied and the affect these changes would have. Request all the billing details that you are missing.

It is too early to start entering into details of the claim with them. This can be explored and worked out later.

DirectDebacle

Cardew wrote: »

The settlements are without any admission of liability and even paying in full DDs 'massive' claim does not establish a precedent.

It doesn't establish a legal precedent. However they are sending a message that they will pay out large claims in full rather than contest them in court. That may not last but at the moment it is a positive sign from a claimants point of view.

meggsy

Something we all knew here :rolleyes:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7696750.stm

DirectDebacle

meggsy wrote: »

Something we all knew here :rolleyes:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7696750.stm

They were bottom of that Division all last season as well. Problem is there is no relegation to the International Ceased Trading League 1 where they could play Lehman Brothers, Icesave, Kaupthing etc.

I think Nick Leeson is the Treasurer.

Cardew

Reading, as one does, this House of Common's report, there is an interesting paragraph on NPower

Direct selling

25. Whilst direct sales currently provide the most effective means of persuading hard-
to-reach consumers to switch supplier, they must be conducted with the utmost
propriety. We welcome Ofgem’s investigation into Npower’s selling practices, and we will be looking at the regulator’s conclusions and recommendations with particular care. Any further significant breach of best practice by any supplier would inevitably lead to calls for this sales technique to be abandoned. The industry must consider itself on notice.


The Government shares the Committee’s view as to the need for the very highest standards of practice in direct selling. It is open to Ofgem in the light of current inquiries and thereafter, to consider whether any further requirements should be placed on suppliers in respect of direct sales.

Could this be the same issue as being discussed here?

If not - what is the issue?

DirectDebacle

Cardew wrote: »

Could this be the same issue as being discussed here?

If not - what is the issue?

Thank you for posting that link. It isn't the same issue as this. Ofgem have two outstanding investigations with npower. This issue and doorstep mis-selling.

The mis-selling issue was the first investigation they opened and was on the back of the expose by The Times, which I believe was in April. The 'billing irregularities' investigation was launched in June following a complaint by Energywatch. The report you have seen was published in July and could have been written before the billing inquiry started. Ofgem may have named npower as they had an investigation underway concerning Direct Selling and were keen to show the committee they were doing something. Also the Direct Selling problems are common to other suppliers whereas the issue on this thread is peculiar to npower.

As far as I know Ofgem are due to publish the results of their investigations (of both inquiries) next month.

savers_united

Having done a Google search I have been directed to this forum, a few months ago N power wanted me to pay £29.65 a final amount to close the account having moved to Swalec.
I debated this payment as I was always in credit and come the last final bill N power suddenly say I owe £29.65, funny that.
Anyhow I contacts N power who refer it to their billing dept, then some 6 months later get a final reminder for the outstanding amount, I contacts N Power and they explain that having checked back on the account the charge is valid and needed to be paid.
So I pay up and hear nothing more, but something inside still had me feeling I had been tucked up, So being billed quarterly and not paying by DD I knew I had to find all my bills from last year which I recently did and here are my findings if someone would be so kind to look over them for me.

I signed up to N power on 22nd Dec 2006 on their standard 2 tier tariff.
First bill April (22nd Dec to 12th Apr 2158 Kwh at higher rate)
Second bill June (12th Apr to 30th Apr 269Kwh at higher rate / 30th Apr to 7th Jun 469Kwh at higher rate)
Third bill Sept (7th June to 6th Sept 1127Kwh at higher rate)
Four bill Jan (6th Sept to 7th Jan 2795Kwh at higher rate)
Final bill (7th Jan to 13th Feb 1079Kwh at higher rate)

I worked out in the 14 months I had been with N power I was charged 7897Kwh at the higher tier rate.
I worked out for the exact period of 22nd Dec 06 to 22nd Dec 07 I was charged approx 6618Kwh at the higher tier tariff.

My tariff is supposed to be the first 4572Kwh per annum at the higher rate, Npower told me on the phone they usually split it quarterly at approx 1143Kwh.

So if I do have a case what is the best way to proceed.

Thanks for any advice

DirectDebacle

Hi,

Yes you do have a case. Post #692 gives full details on how to check bills.
I calculate that from 22nd Dec 06 to 21st Dec 07 (12months) you were charged 6193 high rate units. That is 1621 units which should have been charged at the lower rate. To calculate the amount use the prices in force at 21/12/07.

Write to npower with the details of the overcharge (check my figures first) and ask for a full refund. Refer them to their current terms and conditions which state that they will charge for no more than 4572 high rate units in any 12 month period.

Give them 14 days min and no more than 28 days to respond. Do not accept any goodwill payment unless it is equal to or in excess of your claim.

reactor_3

Possetjohn wrote: »

Hello all,

Read this thread with interest, as I brought this up in a previous thread some months ago.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=563638

Out of interest I also complained to npower and energywatch and after some time and repeated contacts received a cheque from npower for £40 as a compensation for the "my perception" of the overcharging of primary rate units.

My view is npower acted in a very amoral way here and have managed to collect a lot of extra money from customers who never check their bills. I hope energywatch does persue them and make them compensate all affected customers but I suspect it will never happen except for those who complain loudly and often!
I was lucky since I was so annoyed I switched (fortunately!) to southern electric's price fix 2008 just in time to grab the lower prices until this November. So far Southern Electric have been excellent to deal with
Interestingly 2 days ago I had a customer service guy from npower phoning me up asking why I left them!! I was slightly surprised but gave him a brief precis of the reasons. He apologised and promised to put a note on my file to prevent anyone else calling me.

Probably get another call next week then!

Very smilar to me!! I also switched to Southern Electric and have found them excellent, however I am also coming to the end of the November fix and need to look again unfortunately Npower *seem* to have the best deal at the moment :mad:

I think when they called me asking me why I left too, I think I told them to **** off :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::D

trish06

Hi all i am a bit confused about all this
i was with npower for both gas and electric in 2007

with out reading all this long thread .what do i need to do ?,where do i start

how do i check that they overcharged me ?