NPower gas 'sculpting'

spinningsheep

Thats fantastic direct debacle, I thought it sounded fishy!!

DirectDebacle

epsilondraconis wrote: »

I've calculated that I've been overcharged on the tier 1 by 413 units. These dates are 30-4-07 to 28-4-08 all confirmed readings (I'm happy to let them off the 2 days).

Are you sure?

npower published figures are:

May 07 to Oct 07 381 per month = 2286

Nov. 07 to Feb 08 882 per month = 3528

March 08 = 272

April 08 = 271

Total = 6357

Less 4572 allowed = 1785 overcharge.

How come you were only overcharged by 413. Don't tell me you work for npower and you got a staff discount lol.

spinningsheep

Just spoke to them again, were no help at all, as per. Made no sense to me in the slightest. She kept rettling off unit costs and percentages, and said if I wasnt happy, she could escalate it, but nothing would happen, as thats Npower's policy, and thats that! Are Npower the only ones who do this? Is there a company out there who I can swap to that just charges you that price for gas and that price for electric, SIMPLE PLAIN ENGLISH that you dont need a degree is economics and weeks of free time to work out if they have billed you correctly!!

DirectDebacle

spinningsheep wrote: »

Is there a company out there who I can swap to that just charges you that price for gas and that price for electric, SIMPLE PLAIN ENGLISH that you dont need a degree is economics and weeks of free time to work out if they have billed you correctly!!

Ebico is the most straightforward. Not the cheapest but most user friendly. No confusing price plans, seasonal weighting or other crap. Have a look.

Don't worry about whoever you spoke to. Standard response of gobbledygook designed to confuse you and put you off. Just drop them a line showing when and by how much you have been overcharged. Ask for a refund. Wait a couple of weeks for a response (not over the phone but in writing). If you get no joy then you can escalate it and make things happen.

Never never EVER speak to a debt collection firm over the phone. Insist all communication is in writing.

epsilondraconis

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Are you sure?

npower published figures are:

May 07 to Oct 07 381 per month = 2286

Nov. 07 to Feb 08 882 per month = 3528

March 08 = 272

April 08 = 271

Total = 6357

Less 4572 allowed = 1785 overcharge.

How come you were only overcharged by 413. Don't tell me you work for npower and you got a staff discount lol.

I thought I was sure, but now I'm less certain. Are you saying that everyone will have been overcharged by 1785 units?

I was on npower juice (attempting to do my bit for the environment and all that). Anyway my figures are:

30/04/07-10/08/07
288kWh at 5.068p
0kWh at 1.915p

10/08/07-04/09/07
169kWh at 5.068p
0kWh at 1.915p

04/09/07-04/10/07
364kWh at 5.068p
0kWh at 1.915p

04/10/07-11/10/07
45kWh at 5.068p
0kWh at 1.915p

11/10/07-04/01/08
2124kWh at 5.068p
1998kWh at 1.915p

* Price rise here

04/01/08-30/01/08
740kWh at 6.736p
840kWh at 1.990p

30/01/08-28/04/08
1435kWh at 6.736p
2841kWh at 1.990p

I've then added all of the tier 1 kWh values and it comes to 5165. I've then subtracted 4572 and I get 593. Ooops, previously in my haste to work it out I incorrectly subtracted it from 4752 to get 413.

If 593 is correct, I'm assuming that these should have been charged at the lower rate, rather than the higher rate, the best scenario would be (6.736p-1.99p=4.746p per unit overcharged). This would make a grand total of £28.14 overcharged.

That is my current simplistic way of looking at it. Any thoughts on whether I have calculated this correctly would be appreciated.

Cardew

epsilondraconis

You are a very low user of gas, and you didn't use all your allocation of tier 1 units from 30 April 2007 to 11 Oct 2007.

DD's figures are on the assumption that you use all your Tier 1 units each month as most will.

I can only think that there are some estimated readings in your figures.

For instance you used only 288 kWh in 102 days(30/4 to 10/8/07) - about £8! yet later in the summer 364 kWh in 30 days.

So your figures are probably correct

LexisMagna

DirectDebacle wrote: »

spinningsheep wrote: »

EDIT: the data I posted back in May was this, and people were very helpful, so I am hoping this may help someone to work this out!!

Those dates (less than a year) total 5082. So you have been overcharged. For the full amount choose a year either 16/3/07-15/3/08 or 1/4/07-31/3/08. I would go for the latter period.

Yes, you have been given a load of hogwash.

The reality is that this matter has been an issue since January this year at least. npower are well aware of it, Energywatch are aware of it, Ofgem are aware of it and customers are aware of it. It has been mentioned on television and in the national press. Complaints of this nature will no longer be a surprise to npower and they will have briefed customer services on how to deal with them.

npower have taken the attitude that they have done nothing wrong. Their customer services are probably under instruction to deny any overcharging and if that doesn't work to tell you anything they think will appease you. Certainly they don't mean what they say, say what they mean or do what they say they are going to do. Unless you can accurately make a record of your conversations with them, then they will deny anything that they may have said which could be construed to be to your advantage. They will employ any delaying tactics they can.

The best thing to do is to phone them and tell them you are making a complaint about overcharging. Give them the dates you were overcharged. Ask for a complaint No. Don't discuss the details with them as it is a waste of time. Get the complaint no. and then phone the Higher Level Complaints Team on 0800 3161492. Tell them you want a refund. Tell them if you do not receive a refund within fourteen days then you will take them to court. Follow this up in writing to:

Npower
Eighth Avenue
Team Valley
Gateshead
Tyne and Wear NE11 0SX.

Just contacting the general customer services will have you chasing your tail for months.

Send your letter recorded delivery.

This is your starting point. From there, depending on what response, if any, you receive will dictate your next move. This company will not refund you a penny unless they feel backed into a corner. Show them you mean business and that you will not be fobbed off with their pitiful excuses. Giving them a sense of your determination should produce a result. It seems to have worked for others judging by some recent posts.

If you are in dispute with npower over a bill and are contacted by a debt recovery company, then inform the company that the matter is in dispute. Until the dispute is resolved they are not allowed to press you for payment. Continuing to do so is deemed as harassment. npower as the instructing client are deemed equally responsible in this. There are good threads on here on how to deal with debt collection companies. Have a read.

DirectDebacle

You are somewhat confused with your legal advice. Under the Rights of Entry (Gas & Electric Board) Act 1952 a utility company cannot be awarded a warrant of entry to a property to disconnect a customer where there is a genuine dispute over the bill. The fact that the bill is disputed does not in itself prevent a utility company from pursuing a customer for payment.

Further more it is not harassment to pursue an individual for a debt, and the Protection from Harassment Act was not created for that purpose.

If anyone is being pursued for debt or is involved with any other legal issue with another party. The first best approach would be to request full details of the debt or claim to establish what they are alleging is in fact accurate. If it is then deal with it. If not, then revert to the pursuer pointing out the weakness of their claim or inaccuracy in the debt demand. What you must remember it is for the pursuer to prove on a balance of probabilities that what they are saying is correct.

I don't know much about the issues raised here with npower, apart from what I have heard and read. It seems to me that if you can establish that you have made a loss, taking everything into consideration, then you have a reasonable chance of success if you take the matter through court. However, litigation should be a final and carefully considered step, as although the Small Claims Track does not normally have any costs implications for a losing side, there are sanctions the Courts can impose for unreasonable behaviour, which includes pursuing a course of action unreasonably or exaggerating a claim.

meggsy

I noticed that Martin had a meeting with Ofgem but the thread has not been updated.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1045663&highlight=ofgem

I put my claim in a long time ago which was acknowledged but ... still waiting !

If you would like to use a template letter there is one available here ..

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/consumer_affairs/article4122913.ece

epsilondraconis

Cardew wrote: »

epsilondraconis

You are a very low user of gas, and you didn't use all your allocation of tier 1 units from 30 April 2007 to 11 Oct 2007.

DD's figures are on the assumption that you use all your Tier 1 units each month as most will.

I can only think that there are some estimated readings in your figures.

For instance you used only 288 kWh in 102 days(30/4 to 10/8/07) - about £8! yet later in the summer 364 kWh in 30 days.

So your figures are probably correct

Hi Cardew, thanks for checking the figures. You're absolutely correct, there are some estimated figures in there. I was attempting to produce the figures whilst also working tut tut.

My new (and hopefully more accurate) figures, indicate that I have been overcharged by 782kWh. This is calculated as follows:

The end date for my all of calculations is 30/01/08 - this is because this date is associated with a confirmed reading on my statement. The start date is therefore 30/01/07; however the closest confirmed reading to this date is 18/01/07. The difference between the two dates is 13 days i.e. I need to remove 13 days worth of tier 1 units.

I know that between 18/01/07 and 06/03/07, 993kWh tier 1 units were allocated (see below). This total period is 48 days and from this I need to use only 35 of them (48-13). My tier 1 units between 30/01/07 and 06/03/07 is thus: 993*(35/48) = 724kWh.

Summing all of the tier 1 units from the list below:

724 + 555 + 345 + 288 + 169 + 364 + 45 + 2124 + 740 = 5354

5354 - 4572 = 782kWh OVERCHARGED

Now to determine how much this overcharging relates to in financial terms, I have for each of the figures above, generated the difference between the tier 1 and tier 2 charges to give me an average figure.

(724+555+345)*(5.068p-2.492p) +
(288+169+364+45+2124)*(5.068p-1.915p) +
(740)*(6.736p-1.99p) = £171.22 * (782/5354) = £25.01 OVERCHARGED

Hmmm, I guess it's not going to change my life. Moreover, the amount of effort I've just spent calculating it I wonder whether it is worth my while. Still, it is my money and npower have overcharged me by that amount, therefore I feel its my duty to attempt to claw it back.


Key: * The asterik denotes a confirmed reading.

18/01/07* to 06/03/07*
T1: 993kWh at 5.068p : to be replaced with 724kWh
T2: 1380kWh at 2.492p

06/03/07* to 07/04/07
T1: 288kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

07/04/07 to 30/04/07
T1: 288kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

30/04/07 to 10/08/07*
T1: 288kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

10/08/07* to 04/09/07*
T1: 169kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

04/09/07* to 04/10/07
T1: 364kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

04/10/07 to 11/10/07*
T1: 45kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

11/10/07 to 04/01/08
T1: 2124kWh at 5.068p
T2: 1998kWh at 1.915p

* Price rise here

04/01/08 to 30/01/08*
T1: 740kWh at 6.736p
T2: 840kWh at 1.990p

DirectDebacle

LexisMagna wrote: »

DirectDebacle wrote: »

DirectDebacle

You are somewhat confused with your legal advice. Under the Rights of Entry (Gas & Electric Board) Act 1952 a utility company cannot be awarded a warrant of entry to a property to disconnect a customer where there is a genuine dispute over the bill. The fact that the bill is disputed does not in itself prevent a utility company from pursuing a customer for payment.

Further more it is not harassment to pursue an individual for a debt, and the Protection from Harassment Act was not created for that purpose.

If anyone is being pursued for debt or is involved with any other legal issue with another party. The first best approach would be to request full details of the debt or claim to establish what they are alleging is in fact accurate. If it is then deal with it. If not, then revert to the pursuer pointing out the weakness of their claim or inaccuracy in the debt demand. What you must remember it is for the pursuer to prove on a balance of probabilities that what they are saying is correct.

I don't know much about the issues raised here with npower, apart from what I have heard and read. It seems to me that if you can establish that you have made a loss, taking everything into consideration, then you have a reasonable chance of success if you take the matter through court. However, litigation should be a final and carefully considered step, as although the Small Claims Track does not normally have any costs implications for a losing side, there are sanctions the Courts can impose for unreasonable behaviour, which includes pursuing a course of action unreasonably or exaggerating a claim.

Thank you for your comments.

The O.P. in post #586. stated that he was disputing a bill with npower and that npower had told him that the bill had been put on hold whilst it was under review. Despite this assurance the O.P. continued to receive demands for payment from npower and received in addition, as I understood it, a demand from a debt collection agency.

The OFT have guidelines for debt collection agencies and those that use them. There is a long but not exhaustive list of behaviour which the OFT does not condone. What the O.P. experienced from npower does not appear to be condoned by the OFT.

I am not a legal expert so I may well have been confused on this point. I am assuming you are a legal expert and would therefore be grateful for your advice.

The O.P. stated [...overcharged us by some 2000 units at the higher rate, and they agreed with me on the phone back in May, and agreed to recalcuate the bill and place the account on hold. this amount, approx £400 on the gas is from our old property that we moved from 15/05/08. Since then I have been calling them and chasing them, each time to be told that the "complaint" hadn't been raised properly, and would have to be done again, i was told this 4 times. All the meanwhile I was getting reminder letters that the amount was overdue, yada yada, until I get a letter from "collections direct" or something along those lines, which I understand is just Npower trying to scare you into paying as it looks like it may be a debt collector]

npower have given the O.P. misleading information, not done what they promised they would do, i.e. put the account on hold pending investigation and have on four occasions told the O.P. the account would be investigated but failed to investigate and continued to demand payment. Is it your opinion that this is accepted and acceptable practice?

You are correct to point out that there is a risk of the County Court imposing sanctions if a frivolous claim is brought before them. I think there is very little chance of that.

It would be difficult to exaggerate the amount of claim as it is in black and white on customers bills and easily calculated. npower themselves have publicly stated that they did overcharge customers though claim this was compensated for by a price reduction. The issue is to do with the interpretation of the contract and the alleged breach of it by npower. As such Energywatch and the Ombudsman who would normally be involved with customer complaints will not deal with this. npower are flatly refusing to admit any liability and are maintaining their bills are correct. The customer is put in the position of either paying a bill they believe has been overcharged, not paying it and being pursued by npower, debt collection agencies and possible court action or claiming the amount they say they are owed from npower. The County Court is the only realistic option for this.

Under the circumstances I feel the County Court would view this as a proper course of action and not consider it unreasonable.

This thread is about victims of overcharging finding the best way of recovering their money. In most cases this money has already been paid to npower as the bills were paid before it was realised the overcharging had taken place. The reference to debt collection agencies was raised as a side issue but if you are in a position to give sound advice as how best to deal with them then this may be useful. npower have a reputation for being very quick off the mark in instructing them.