NPower gas 'sculpting'

Cardew

[quote=LexisMagna;13325795I don't know much about the issues raised here with npower, apart from what I have heard and read. It seems to me that if you can establish that you have made a loss, taking everything into consideration, then you have a reasonable chance of success if you take the matter through court. However, litigation should be a final and carefully considered step, as although the Small Claims Track does not normally have any costs implications for a losing side, there are sanctions the Courts can impose for unreasonable behaviour, which includes pursuing a course of action unreasonably or exaggerating a claim.[/quote]

Whilst your legal input is appreciated, this thread is about a specific grievance affecting literally millions of NPower customers.

I suggest that it might have been more constructive had you fully investigated the "issues raised" before posting a warning that might well deter legitimate claims.

DirectDebacle

epsilondraconis wrote: »

That is my current simplistic way of looking at it. Any thoughts on whether I have calculated this correctly would be appreciated.

As a low user your figures are interesting as they illustrate precisely how seasonally weighted adjusting works. I was well aware of the theory but to actually see it in black and white has an impact.

I roughly split your billing period into quarters, making adjustments to the dates and high units to compensate. The figures I came up with, though not accurate, are pretty close.

Over four quarters npower have charged you for around 4700 high rate units.

If you had been with a supplier that charges an even 1143 high rate units for each quarter of a year then you would have been charged for around 3200 high rate units. It is a while since I checked but I am pretty sure npower have by far and away the highest price for the tier 1 rate.

I have recently switched to SP 2011 fixed. Their tier 1 at the moment is 3.808 which won't be the cheapest but is almost half what npower charge.

This is where npower get low users such as yourself by using seasonally adjusted weighting which is almost impossible for comparison sites to factor in.

Doesn't take the thread forward but I found it interesting to see a real example in action.

About time the govt. and Ofgem got hold of this industry and banned all forms of marketing incentives in an industry where people are forced to buy their products. No more 'seasonal weighting' dual fuel/direct debit discounts, online savers etc and in particular stop charging the poor more for paying up front for their energy because they have to use a pre-payment meter.

These companies should be competing on price per kWh and good customer service. Transparent pricing and excellent service will ensure true competition. They enjoy a unique position with a captive customer base and the consumer needs protection from sharp business practices.

epsilondraconis

DirectDebacle wrote: »

...
Over four quarters npower have charged you for around 4700 high rate units.

If you had been with a supplier that charges an even 1143 high rate units for each quarter of a year then you would have been charged for around 3200 high rate units. It is a while since I checked but I am pretty sure npower have by far and away the highest price for the tier 1 rate.
...

Hi DirectDebacle, thanks again for the feedback. I hadn't actually appreciated how the 'seasonal weighting' was implemented by npower until your post. As I was putting the numbers together, I wondered how they worked out their tier 1 total over the course of a year if low amounts were used during a quarter.

Your calculations indicate that I was charged 4700 high rate units over the four quarters, whereas in my last post I calculated 5354 high rate units. Would you be able to take a quick look at my figures because I was planning to use them in my complaint to npower; however it would be useful to know if I've made a school-boy error in my calculations.

Thanks in advance.

DirectDebacle

epsilondraconis wrote: »

....it would be useful to know if I've made a school-boy error in my calculations.

Thanks in advance.

The figures look slightly out.
You show these:

18/01/07* to 06/03/07*
T1: 993kWh at 5.068p : to be replaced with 724kWh
T2: 1380kWh at 2.492p

06/03/07* to 07/04/07
T1: 288kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

07/04/07 to 30/04/07
T1: 288kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

30/04/07 to 10/08/07*
T1: 288kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

10/08/07* to 04/09/07*
T1: 169kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

04/09/07* to 04/10/07
T1: 364kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

04/10/07 to 11/10/07*
T1: 45kWh at 5.068p
T2: 0kWh at 1.915p

11/10/07 to 04/01/08
T1: 2124kWh at 5.068p
T2: 1998kWh at 1.915p

* Price rise here

04/01/08 to 30/01/08*
T1: 740kWh at 6.736p
T2: 840kWh at 1.990p

The above total 5030.

Then you show these: 724 + 555 + 345 + 288 + 169 + 364 + 45 + 2124 + 740 = 5354

The totals are correct for each but the first set has three lots of 288 and the second set one 288 and a 555 and 345 which accounts for the difference of 324 between the two sets of figures. Not sure why there are different figures.

Mine were just a quick calc I did to compare how an even 1143 per qtr would stack up against what npower charged you using their seasonal weighting. I had to juggle dates and figures around in order to do it so the figures are an approximation but not an exact match.

You might try adjusting your billing dates from 1/04/07 to 31/03/08 if you can. It is this period where most of the overcharging will occur but as you are a very low user of gas it might not make much difference to the figures you have already worked out. Good luck.

epsilondraconis

DirectDebacle wrote: »

...
Then you show these: 724 + 555 + 345 + 288 + 169 + 364 + 45 + 2124 + 740 = 5354

The totals are correct for each but the first set has three lots of 288 and the second set one 288 and a 555 and 345 which accounts for the difference of 324 between the two sets of figures. Not sure why there are different figures.

Hi DirectDebacle, sorry I feel like such a muppet. It appears I'm incapable of copying numbers from my notepad onto the laptop without generating a whole series of copy and paste errors.

The second and third sets of dates should have read:

06/03/07* to 07/04/07
T1: 555kWh at 5.068p
T2: 959kWh at 2.492p

07/04/07 to 30/04/07
T1: 345kWh at 5.068p
T2: 372kWh at 2.492p

Sorry once again for my incompetence - thanks for taking the trouble to go through the numbers.

I'll also do as you suggest and adjust my billing dates so they are from 1/04/07 to 31/03/08, although as you say, because of the low usage, it won't make much of a difference. I won't need to plaster the numbers on here again - which will be a blessing for everyone viewing this thread.

I can only hope my wife doesn't read this thread, otherwise she will learn that we are a low user of gas. Once she has that information, I can guarantee the thermostat will be whacked up. I don't see anything wrong in us each wearing 3 jumpers rather than switching on the heating!!!

Thanks again for the help...

DirectDebacle

The Times are running an article in tomorrows edition. It will be about the forthcoming demise of Energywatch and may be of interest. An online version of the article should be available later on this evening. Go to:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/article4532420.ece

This is also interesting. I wasn't aware of it but there may be a chance to reclaim some costs if you do not pay by D.D. Good news for those on pre-payment meters. Apologies if there is already a thread on this.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/consumer_affairs/article4448569.ece

DirectDebacle

[quote=LexisMagna;13325795

I don't know much about the issues raised here with npower, apart from what I have heard and read. It seems to me that if you can establish that you have made a loss, taking everything into consideration, then you have a reasonable chance of success if you take the matter through court. However, litigation should be a final and carefully considered step, as although the Small Claims Track does not normally have any costs implications for a losing side, there are sanctions the Courts can impose for unreasonable behaviour, which includes pursuing a course of action unreasonably or exaggerating a claim.[/quote]

It seems this poster joined MSE for the sole purpose of indulging in a bit of scaremongering. Though correct to point out that the court can apply sanctions if unreasonable claims are brought, the poster did not give the whole picture. No doubt gone back to a dingy office somewhere in npowerland to work on their next money making wheeze.

There is an excellent guide to the Small Claims Track written by the C.A.B. You can find it here: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_rights/legal_system/small_claims.htm

Aside from much useful information there are links to other sites that you will also need if making a claim.

With regards to my claim (yours will not be identical but very similar) the court will need to be shown that certain requirements have been met. The main one will be that you have tried to recover your money before taking court action.

You need to write to npower requesting you be refunded what they have overcharged you. Inform them that if they do not meet your claim you will take court action. Give them a reasonable time to respond but no more than four weeks.

If after four weeks your claim has not been resolved to your satisfaction then write to them again informing them that you are going to initiate court proceedings.

The court will also want to know if there are any other tribunals you could have gone to in order to settle the claim. These are Energywatch and the Ombudsman scheme, which npower is a member of.

Energywatch told me that this particular dispute was not within their remit to investigate.

npower informed me that the Ombudsman would not deal with this type of dispute either. I contacted the Ombudsman and this was confirmed by them.

Ofgem was not set up to deal with individuals complaints and will refer you back to Energywatch.

I also contacted my local Trading Standards. again this was not within their remit but there has been a recent change to consumer law which may have altered this.

(You will have to make these checks yourself. Do not take my word for it. The court will want to satisy itself that you have explored other avenues of redress.)

Therefore the usual channels of resolving disputes between energy suppliers and customers are closed. This realistically only leaves you with the courts.

Prior to setting a court date a judge will read the papers and make a decision as to whether the case is reasonable and to which track to allocate it to. At this point if the judge feels that the case is one that should not be put before a court then he can order a preliminary hearing which both sides attend and he can explain his views. There is therefore some check applied to try to weed out unreasonable cases.

You will be presenting the court with a good case backed up by strong arguments. It will be an issue that has been reported in the national press and television (therefore of public interest) and some aspects of which are the subject of an independent investigation by Ofgem.

If the court were not to find in your favour I would think it very unlikely they would view this as an unreasonable case and impose sanctions.

Of course throughout the whole process up until you step inside the courtroom both sides have the opportunity to settle the matter and halt the proceedings.

My date of hearing is still some way off. Do not let anyone put you off from claiming what is rightfully yours.

If indeed the O.P. does have some affiliation with npower then I take heart from the fact that they are not confident about the outcome of a court case and seek to dissuade you.

If they were do you think they would be making 'goodwill payments'.

Cardew

Well said DD.

That is absolutely no way any complaint on this matter will be ever considered 'frivolous' or unreasonable if you claim losses and don't exagerate other costs.

In my single experience(against a major organisation represented by a lawyer) it was very easy and informal. Not only did I win my case, but I was awarded travelling costs, interest on the outstanding claim, and the statutory compensation for taking a day off work; even though I didn't lose any salary.

I also find it rather strange that lexismagna joined and posted in terms implying he/she had legal expertise and apparently with the sole objective of deterring claims against NPower.

Endora_2

Endora wrote: »

Only found this thread as I had left something on the forums about the problems I've been having with USwitch.com and npower. Was amazed to read about this so dug out all my bills, worked out the charges since 22nd March 2007 up to 5th June 2008 and it comes to 6760kWh so I presume I too have been overcharged? It's funny though as couldn't find (on last two bills) anything for the dates 6th March to 3rd April 2008. A previous bill had 4th Jan to 6th March 08 then the following bill just had 3rd April to 5th June 08. Rang up npower to ask why and was told it was to do with the fact that I had phoned through a meter reading, couldn't see relevance of that though as the reading for those missed dates was already missing off the statement/bill even before I had rung the meter reading through! Anyway they are going to send me a statement for the missing dates which should get to me in the next 3 days. Will wait until that comes through so I can work out total kWh charges for the year, if it's still over then will ring them about it.

Well I received the missing bill and worked out the following useage I was charged at the higher rate:
30 Apr - 18 May 07 = 217 kWh
18 May - 15 Jun 07 = 347 kWh
15 Jun - 18 Jun 07 = 32 kWh (not sure why only 4 days)
18 Jun - 13 Sep 07 = 1078 kWh
13 Sep - 30 Sep 07 = 216 kWh
30 Sep - 13 Dec 07 = 1633 kWh
13 Dec 07 - 04 Jan 08 = 626 kWh
04 Jan - 03 Apr 08 = 1950 kWh
03 Apr - 05 Jun 08 = 298 kWh
The grand total of which (if I'm correct) is 6397 kWh at the higher rate charged in a year period, this amounts to 1825 kWh over which I should be refunded for?
With all this information in front of me I proceeded to telephone Npower and spoke to a young woman called Lesley who (after placing me on hold whilst she sought advice), informed me that my yearly bills are calculated from 01 Nov of one year to 31 Oct of the next to which I said that I would dig out my bills/statements back to Nov 06 and recalculate my useage/charges at the high rate up to Oct 2007 (it seems pointless doing it for 07-08 as not had bill or even used any gas to Oct 08 yet). I then asked her when this price sculpturing came into effect to which she put me on hold again whilst she sought more advice, then telling me that it didn't come into effect until November 2007 (I though it was April 2007, am I wrong here?) and then told me that she would be sending me an '8' page document explaining all about this price sculpturing and how it is worked out. Not sure if I've hit a dead end here or it's still worth pursuing, am I being fobbed off?

mute_posting

Endora wrote: »

am I being fobbed off?

Almost definitely, YES!