Using a carrier bag to line kitchen bin?

Ben84

Pretani wrote: »

I should have said in my initial post that if we only used biodegradable plastic bags which are produced from plants oils, we would provide a business for our farmers and there would be no need to change the way we use plastic bags.

Production and distribution of any bags will cost more than most reusable bags in economic and environmental terms. However, bioplastics are potentially very bad news for the environment.

We've already converted a massive amount of the planet in to crop land, should we really be converting even more to make bio plastics? Also, all this intensive farming links back to fossil fuels to power machinery and produce fertiliser (nitrogen fixing is very energy intensive), and mining phosphates. The plastic might not contain any fossil fuels, but that doesn't mean it hasn't consumed them and left a trail of various waste in its production.

Bio plastics that degrade also present two new problems. One, many don't biodegrade that well it turns out, some need high temperature composting that simply doesn't take place in landfills, and landfills don't really rot the waste much anyway, there's not enough water or air. You can still dig up newspapers from 40 years ago and read them. Many of the new bio plastics will sit undecaying in landfills like their petrochemical predecessors for a very long time.

Second, most bio plastics don't recycle well either, because they're designed to degrade. Processing breaks them down, or we have yet to find a way to reprocess them. Where they enter the recycling with regular plastics they spoil the whole lot. Consumers and recycling facilities are already struggling to identify regular plastics, these new ones will make it even harder.

There are currently a few home compostable bio plastics in use that work well it seems, but you need to be wary of greenwashing when bio plastics are involved. It's not all as green as it can seem. And even if we solve the technical problems above, we have to ask if it's such a positive thing to have useful resources just biodegrade so we have to keep returning for more, which means the loop is open and needs constant resource input. Also, is it right to make plastics from plants when many countries have significant food shortages?

The popularity of biofuels has greatly increased food crop prices and as can be expected the poorest people in the world suffered the most. Bio plastics could just send the price up further as wealthy consumers around the world can afford to buy up even more of the world's potential food output in yet another new form.

Pretani wrote: »

I find plastic bags extremely handy when I use them for other jobs than bringing home the shopping. They serve so many different functions before they eventually go into the bin. I'd hate to see the standard plastic bag go out of production simply because there is a refusal to manufacture biodegradable plant based bags and an enviromental movement against throw-a-ways.

Disposable bags have their uses, I still use them, but in quite small amounts compared to how I used to some years ago. In general they're a fair target for raising environmental awareness because most are thrown away after one use. Even if this wasteful trend isn't true for everyone who uses them, it is and has been a normal way to use them for many people for a long time now.

ailuro2

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle

So if you have a carrier bag, use it for shopping a few times, you are reducing and re-using, then re-using it again for rubbish, thereby cutting down on black bag production - yes, they might be made from recycled bags, but they do need extra energy.

We don't put much into the ordinary bin these days.

In winter we store up the recycling inside and take it with us when we're going out - it's not very eco friendly to let heat out of the house in wintertime just to recycle a can, is it ??;)

Money_maker

choille wrote: »

If I run out of space I ask for a cardboard box, but it is amazing how many stores now just slice them up & flatten them.
I can take pleasure in holding a queue up as I ask for them to check to make sure that there isn't a nice strong box somewhere in the store - they should keep some at the check outs - Morrissons usually does.

Years ago, there were always a selection of boxes at the end of checkouts for customers to use. Perhaps these should be more widely available again instead of expecting customers to fork out for their reusable sturdy bags. After all, we all recycle cardboard, dont we.

choille

Hi Money maker,

I'm doing a one woman campaign - insisting on them.

Holding queues up is reamrkably effective. I've reached the age where I don't give a [EMAIL="bugg@r"]bugg@r[/EMAIL]. I may even start wearing purple.

devizes18193

I love theses bags , my son who is 14 has special needs and is still in nappies , they make great nappie bags , The ones you buy for babies are two small

mech_2

kennyboy66 wrote: »

God help us if you son was really taught this.

Recycling isn't a perfect process, and there is energy required to make the bins and collect materials. However if you include all the energy required the numbers are roughly as follows;

Aluminum requires 95 percent less energy made from recycled cans than bauxite. Recycled plastic bottles use 75 percent less energy.
Newsprint uses about 45 percent less.
Glass comes in at the lowest, saving us about 20 percent of manufacturing energy.

This will obviously vary by location.

Yes. What kennyboy66 said. :T

Plus it's worth assessing how long a wheelie bin actually lasts. My general waste bin has 1984 moulded into the lid. So do most others in the neighbourhood. I assume this is when they were issued.

Mine is in worse condition than most. It is split, and has some graffiti on it, but it still performs its function perfectly well and is parked out of sight so its looks don't matter. There's no need to replace it just because of a split.

I also have two other wheelie bins. One for garden waste and one for bottles and cans. These new bins were issued 5 or 6 years ago and are still as good as new. The age of the other bins around here suggests the recycling bin has at least another couple of decades of life in it yet. That's an awful lot of recycled material per household.

Pretani

Ben 84, you have shown there are many plausible arguments against biodegradable plant-based plastics bags, but I hope you'll kindly excuse me for not responding to your arguments point by point as I feel we have to look at this global problem in a simpler context.

I've believe that 2 sustainable strategies will take the world forward in no specific order, the first being eco-efficiency and the second eco-effectiveness. Eco-efficiency includes the biodegradable ideas of plastic bags and Eco-effectiveness generally relies on changing our habits, much like the way we're being advised to buy a bag for life.

These 2 strategies must work along side each other, but at the moment I feel the biodegradable (eco-efficient side) of current plastic bags is being overshadowed and dragging behind the bag-for-life (eco-effective) side.

There has to be a compromise between the 2.;), so I believe its healthy to support the disposable bag as its presently loosing the battle. One day we might find the 'Holy Grail' of compromise.

Rant over:D

sammiboo

unfortunately we dont have wheelie bins or council recycling scheme.

We do however make sure we recycle everything we can. Since we moved to a house with a garden we have composted a lot of waste. Toilet rolls, brown cardboard etc and its great.

Everything else I take to the local recycling centre and the rest goes out to the bin man. There is just two of us (and parrot) and we fill half a black bag a week. I still have plenty of bin bags from last year the council gave us, we just arent getting through them.

Chinkle

We're still using the low quality carrier bags for lining the kitchen bin, cos it's the only one that we use to throw the non-recyclable rubbish in; plastic packaging, juice cartons etc.

While this type of packaging still exists might as well use the plastic bags to wrap it in. Fortunately, with our orange bag scheme, bokashi box and compost heap we only fill one carrier a week.