Possible primary school appeal

Mumstheword

I'm not missing any point!! I understand your point, but it is NOT the one I raised, so using it in reply to me is irrelevant!

I chose to agree to my son's choice and pay for that, no problem there (except I'm poor now lol)

I just object to state funded schools being allowed to select their pupils on grounds of faith, it's irrelevant to reading writing and arithmetic!!. I'd rather they were available to all regardless of faith.

poet123

It may not be the point you wanted addressed but it is the pertinent one!! from your perpective if your child is eligible for a faith school but you choose another opton that is your choice.

If you fell into a group outside that then you perhaps would have a valid point and an axe to grind,and hence get a more sympathetic hearing!! or are you playing devils advocate?

Mumstheword

Frankly, I'm bored by your consistent attempts to tell me what I ought to be discussing. That may well be the pertinent question in your opinion.

My point was very simple: Why should some sectors of the community be allowed to select their group of like minded people to school with (outside of the oversubscription criteria), but others not?

poet123

Frankly, I am bored with your consistent attempts to deflect the question from the one you really want answered;-

Why can I not send my child to a fee paying school free?

How about the question;- why should the Govt train teachers at great cost who then defect to the private sector? It is fact that the private sector recruit the brightest of NQT's and that due to class sizes employ a higher ratio of those teachers.

This damages the state sector,do you consider that an issue?

So if you want funding reviewed for faith schools,it should also take account of the costs involved in training teachers who no longer work within the state system.

To mimic your question, I would rather my state educated child was taught by the best teachers trained in this country,rather than they be selected by the private schools and therefore denied to my child, unless we pay for education.

I want the state sector to have access to the brightest/best qualified teachers especially in the areas of science and maths but while independent schools exist it will not happen.

Rather than rage about the perceived unfairness of selection by faith,think about the other issues mentioned and see if on balance it roughly equates.

Then of course there is the other question,should people be allowed to "buy" an enhanced type of schooling for their child? what if you can't afford it, but state provision locally is dire........a two tier system results with kids being disadvanted unless their parents are able to pay.

There are lots of perceived anomalies in life. It boils down to making a choice you can live with, and don't waste energy on trying to change something which you never wanted in the first place....namely, state education in a faith school.

Mumstheword

STOP! for goodness sake!!

Just because there are other issues about education, some of which may be more serious, you have no reason to be so aggressive towards me when I raise one particular issue.

I know what my question is. You dont need to tell me what my question ought to be. You dont need to attempt to decide what underlying question there may be. You dont need to make assumptions about me in the absence of any evidence. You have 'told' me things as if fact, but have not yet produced any evidence. It's an aggressive way to debate, so I'm stepping back.

poet123

Sorry if you don't like the tone of the debate,but if you look back over the posts you will find it was you that set the tone. I merely responded accordingly.

If you choose to address an issue it inevitably encompasses other points which are relevant. We all see things from a personal perspective and that is relevant to our argument,regardless of whether you admit this or not.

if you cannot see the relevance of my other points,(or are unable to formulate a coherent rebuttal of them) then you are blinkered,and it is probably better that we do not continue the debate.

bestpud

Well, fwiw, I believe it is wrong to allow faith schools to select their pupils by faith too.

They are as good as fully state funded schools and therefore should be made to follow the same admissions procedure as other state funded schools.

Fee paying schools do not come into that argument at all - that is a very separate debate! Poet123 - I cannot see what your point is as it is clearly not responding to the issue of state funded schools being allowed to select pupils by faith.

Btw, in my area, parents have to provide proof that they regularly practice the said religion and have done for some time. It is simply not the case that you can gain entry for your child by saying you agree with the ethos.

It is wrong imo - simple as!

poet123

The point was that there are many other areas of education which are perceived as unfair....depending on where you are standing.

The OP obviously fell into a category where her child would have been eligible for entry to a faith school but CHOSE not to do so because what she REALLY wanted was a FREE private education.

In the faith school I am involved with you certainly do not have to provide proof that you are a practising member of the faith. As I think I said I can only speak from personal experience.

Another example of perceived unfairness is that fee paying schools have charitable status,how are they charities,by virtue of giving a few bursaries or scholarships and allowing some use of their facilities??? No, they are clearly businesses.

I think that having had kids in fee paying and state schools I am reasonably unbiased.

It is easy to point the finger at faith schools and say they should not be allowed to select as they are government funded (to a degree)but that is very simplistic,I was merely outlining the bigger more complete picture.

bestpud

Is it about unfairness to individuals though? Or is it more about a misguided way of distributing government spending and state funded opportunities?

I'd call myself unbiased too, having no experience of fee paying or faith schools.

There are many sources of injustice but the issue of fee paying schools in more about wealth inequality.

If parents have the means to select a fee paying school then that is their choice. It could be called unfair as it is saying some children are entitled to a better standard of education based on their parents income rather than their ability, but that's that way it is and always has been. Those with money are able to buy themselves all sorts of advantages - education is but one aspect - but that is not going to disappear.

What is less acceptable is state funded education (ie that which the majority of us have to accept for our children) should segregate children purely by their faith (or let's face it - at 11 years old it is by their parent's faith!) It should be the case that those who cannot opt out of state education do at least have as good a chance as the next child within this system. Allowing some schools to select is making a mockery of the whole concept, especially when it is done on the grounds of faith only.

This is where unfairness starts to creep into a system which could, and should, be fair because it is not an option for those who cannot go elsewhere! I believe most taxpayers would like to think state education is fair, regardless of their position, don't you?

poet123

Do you not agree that many parents/children would fall into the faith school category but choose to send their child elsewhere for other reasons? i.e closest to home,work,graandparents,family connection etc etc.

Also, many children not of the faith attend faith schools,as I said the make up of these schools is changing as society changes.

No system is entirely fair,what about the postcode lottery for the NHS?

The faith school system has served hundreds of thousands of kids(of faith and none) very effectively over the years. Their results are consistently higher than other schools,why would you seek to change that by tinkering with the system? because of some perceived unfairness?.

Do you actually have any figures to show how many children cannot gain entry to a faith school? we do live in a country where C of E is the majority religion after all. Or would the facts get in the way?


Taxpayers are also being "cheated"if you want to use an emotive term by teachers defecting to private schools when they have been trained at great public expense. Is that not also an issue?