New cooker couldn't be connected - refund?

sheramber

Woodstok2000 said:

I would definitely escalate the complaint with argos, then claim back on s75 with the credit card if that doesn't work. If you had an oven wired in previously woth no issues I think youve covered your responsibilities in terms of the pre-install check, and it would have taken the installer 30 seconds to realise there's no trip and so he can't proceed. No way should you be liable for the fee here.

Partner could have connected the previous oven illegally.

Regulations may have changed since previous oven was connected. 

S75 would only apply if the installation cost was £100 or more as it was paid separately from the oven.
 

What about the cost of the electrician travelling to the job and back again? 

sheramber

Upsidedownyouturnme said:

Alderbank said:

Woodstok2000 said:

There's nothing I can see in the argos terms about checking electrical wiring or consumer units prior to an installation, so seems like a clear case for a refund. Escalate with argos and raise a formal complaint. If that fails, go to the credit card company for an S75 refund.

Argos say:

https://help.argos.co.uk/help/installation/what-do-i-need-to-do-in-advance-of-my-product-being-installed

What do I need to do in advance of my product being installed?

Before our colleagues arrive to install your appliance there are some things you'll need to check.

Ensure there is a suitable power point within 1m of where you want the product to be installed.

The OP's problem seems to be that the supplier's electrician decided that there is no suitable power point where they wanted the cooker to be installed because 'she has no trip switch on her consumer box'.

This is difficult because we don't know the detail of the reasons for his decision. It is not illegal to hard wire an oven to an old-style fuse box but it must be 'safe'. Also it is likely that the cooker connection is via a cooker point which also has a 3 pin socket and such a socket is now illegal under the current version of the wiring regulations.

OP, can you tell us any more about why the electrician decided the installation would be unsafe?

Unfortunately the only information I have is that they said it couldn't be installed without a trip box.

There has been electric cookers there previously (up until today in fact), the previous one being wired by the partner.

It's impossible to get much out of sibling as they never answer direct questions, talking about their other problems and being hysterical about the refund.

I've managed to get more information from mum, but she is feeling harassed and is in her mid 80s, so finds it more confusing.

I did think it was possible for it to be installed, but I'm afraid all they've both told me is that it's impossible without a trip switch in the consumer box.

Sorry I'm not much help, it's impossible to advise them, when they don't understand either.

Thank you.

Was the previous oven hardwired ( a socket with a big red switch) or was it plugged into a normal socket? 

Alderbank

First and foremost, your mum needs to get a local registered electrician round to get the cooker connected. She should confirm that they are registered, either with NICEIC or with NAPIT (that is easy to do, even if she is 'very elderly').

That should ensure safety for your sibling and their family, and remove the temptation for their partner to do another DIY job.

While the electrician is there she should ask the electrician whether, in fact, the connection point would have been safe and legal for AO's electrician to make the connection. No one else, and that includes all of us here on this site, can make that statement (I'm looking at you, @Woodstok2000!).

If he says it was safe and legal, she has her evidence to make a claim against the seller Argos.

screech_78

What exactly have Argos offered when you’ve (or your Mum) asked for a refund? 

On their product pages, when you select installation, it also says that they will call before delivery to go through a checklist with you. Did your sister receive that call? 

Regardless, I think a refund is due. I work for a different company and our installers aren’t electricians so if there’s any reason they can’t install (customer error or not) the fee is refunded. They would have checked prior to starting the install that everything was correct so they won’t have done any work. I can’t see how they can charge for a service you haven’t received. 

Arunmor

I don't think you mother is owed a refund.  The cooker needs to be attached to a 32AMp trip switch, you don't appear to have that.  What would happen if the house went up in a puff of smoke the electrician would potentially be liable.  More likely it just continues to trip a lower amp switch.  Concentrate in getting the wiring of the house sorted first.  

Woodstok2000

Alderbank said:

First and foremost, your mum needs to get a local registered electrician round to get the cooker connected. She should confirm that they are registered, either with NICEIC or with NAPIT (that is easy to do, even if she is 'very elderly').

That should ensure safety for your sibling and their family, and remove the temptation for their partner to do another DIY job.

While the electrician is there she should ask the electrician whether, in fact, the connection point would have been safe and legal for AO's electrician to make the connection. No one else, and that includes all of us here on this site, can make that statement (I'm looking at you, @Woodstok2000!).

If he says it was safe and legal, she has her evidence to make a claim against the seller Argos.

I don't think anyone (and certainly not me) has said the electrician made the wrong decision. I'm questioning the fact they got charged a full installation fee when no work was done, beyond looking at the consumer unit. That's an argument to have with argos and your credit card company, not the electrician.

Woodstok2000

sheramber said:

Woodstok2000 said:

I would definitely escalate the complaint with argos, then claim back on s75 with the credit card if that doesn't work. If you had an oven wired in previously woth no issues I think youve covered your responsibilities in terms of the pre-install check, and it would have taken the installer 30 seconds to realise there's no trip and so he can't proceed. No way should you be liable for the fee here.

Partner could have connected the previous oven illegally.

Regulations may have changed since previous oven was connected. 

S75 would only apply if the installation cost was £100 or more as it was paid separately from the oven.
 

What about the cost of the electrician travelling to the job and back again? 

The OP first post seemed to imply two transactions, and the argos installation fee is definitely over £100. There's no travel cost for the electrician as he's out in the AO van doing deliveries all day anyway.

Of course regs may have changed, but there's no way that knowledge can be expected of the customer as part of a fair contract. The terms only state you need to have an appropriate connection within 1m, and the electrician noted the issue is at the consumer unit so I think there's a reasonable case to have the install fee refunded.

Grumpy_chap

Upsidedownyouturnme said:

Mum is desperately trying to contact Argos to get a refund for the connection fee as sibling has told her that AO said she is entitled to one.  Argos are only offering a small discount.

Woodstok2000 said:

I would definitely escalate the complaint with argos, then claim back on s75 with the credit card if that doesn't work. If you had an oven wired in previously woth no issues I think youve covered your responsibilities in terms of the pre-install check, and it would have taken the installer 30 seconds to realise there's no trip and so he can't proceed. No way should you be liable for the fee here.

screech_78 said:

Regardless, I think a refund is due. I work for a different company and our installers aren’t electricians so if there’s any reason they can’t install (customer error or not) the fee is refunded. They would have checked prior to starting the install that everything was correct so they won’t have done any work. I can’t see how they can charge for a service you haven’t received. 

I actually think the small discount / partial refund offered by Argos is quite possibly reasonable and I disagree with the full refund "no way liable" or "can't charge for a service you haven't received" really applies.

The service to install the cooker has several cost elements:
 - back office to schedule the visit
 - installer's time to travel to the site
 - time on site to do the pre-install checks
 - time on site to complete the install
 - installer's time to travel from the site

The OP has received all of those cost time elements apart from the fourth one.  The actual time to complete the connection of a single device to a suitably located and rated power supply is really very short.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Woodstok2000 said: but there's no way that knowledge can be expected of the customer as part of a fair contract. The terms only state you need to have an appropriate connection within 1m

I think this is a fair comment, wiring regs change constantly and consumers can't be expected to be up-to-date with them.

If the installation fee was broken down as some sort of call out fee + install then perhaps they could keep the call out part but if the fee is for install, the info from Argos doesn't mention the circuit needs an RCD and no one checked as per screech_78's comment above I don't see how they can charge. 

Chargeback for service not received may be an option, I think Argos will have to show they've acted in accordance with their terms. 

Other options are email to Sainsburys CEO or letter before action, arguing the toss with customer services is likely to be frustrating and fruitless. 

powerful_Rogue

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Woodstok2000 said: but there's no way that knowledge can be expected of the customer as part of a fair contract. The terms only state you need to have an appropriate connection within 1m

I think this is a fair comment, wiring regs change constantly and consumers can't be expected to be up-to-date with them.

If the installation fee was broken down as some sort of call out fee + install then perhaps they could keep the call out part but if the fee is for install, the info from Argos doesn't mention the circuit needs an RCD and no one checked as per screech_78's comment above I don't see how they can charge. 

Chargeback for service not received may be an option, I think Argos will have to show they've acted in accordance with their terms. 

Other options are email to Sainsburys CEO or letter before action, arguing the toss with customer services is likely to be frustrating and fruitless. 

No-one knows whether a call was received or what was said.