Argos refusing to accept return

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Grumpy_chap said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The entire concept of delaying acceptance (by all retailers) may cause imbalance, not my words, those in the doc linked to, including a quote from the CMA. 

MAY not DOES 

I merely noted the part in the doc about delayed accepting causing imbalance was interesting, I guess a "potentially" could be thrown into the sentence for the avoidance of the general pedantry on here  

Alderbank

Grumpy_chap said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The entire concept of delaying acceptance (by all retailers) may cause imbalance, not my words, those in the doc linked to, including a quote from the CMA. 

MAY not DOES 

Okell said:

I think I've made this point before on the other Argos threads.

How can something the consumer does (collecting the item) be something only the trader can do (accepting the consumer's offer)?

So the consumer makes an offer to buy and then accepts their own offer by collecting the goods?

Only Argos can accept the offer to buy from the consumer.  In my view that is probably when they notify the consumer the item is ready for collection

Maybe the whole online reservation and pre-payment is nothing more than a Statement of Intent.

The customer says "I intend to buy a xxx for £yyy so please can you prepare my order for collection?  I understand that requires an effort on your part, so as an indicator of my seriousness of intent I will deposit the funds.  The effort to prepare the order for collection is entirely at your (Argos) risk."

Argos prepare the goods for collection and notify the customer that the goods are available.

The customer arrives at the store and offers to conclude the contract and Argos accept the offer by handover of the goods.

Or, the customer might just never attend the store so the money is refunded.

Or, Argos might never prepare the goods for collection so the money is refunded.

That's pretty accurately what the parties agree to in the T&Cs:

All orders that you place on this website will be subject to acceptance in accordance with these terms and conditions.

The 'confirmation' stage sets out the final details of your order. Following this, we will send to you an order acknowledgement email detailing the products you have ordered. Please note that this email is not an order confirmation or order acceptance from Argos. 

For click and collect orders, the title to products shall pass to you once the goods, ordered in accordance with these terms and conditions, have been handed over to you in store.

For Click and Collect...orders, completion of the contract between you and us will take place when the products ordered have been collected from the store.

https://help.argos.co.uk/help/terms-and-conditions/terms-&-conditions/3907544526653875560

Jenni_D

But they don't say anything about acceptance? Other than their acknowledgement email is not acceptance. Seems to me they go to great lengths to avoid acceptance of the order, until the customer has come in and collected it (completion). 🤷‍♀️

Grumpy_chap

Jenni_D said:

But they don't say anything about acceptance? Other than their acknowledgement email is not acceptance. Seems to me they go to great lengths to avoid acceptance of the order, until the customer has come in and collected it (completion). 🤷‍♀️

Not really - it just aligns Argos Click and Collect with any other retail purchase where offer, acceptance and completion happen, to all intents and purposes, simultaneously.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Jenni_D said:

But they don't say anything about acceptance? Other than their acknowledgement email is not acceptance. Seems to me they go to great lengths to avoid acceptance of the order, until the customer has come in and collected it (completion). 🤷‍♀️

completion of the contract between you and us will take place when the products ordered have been collected from the store

Appears to be the acceptance but yes it isn’t worded well at all. 

Grumpy_chap said:

Jenni_D said:

But they don't say anything about acceptance? Other than their acknowledgement email is not acceptance. Seems to me they go to great lengths to avoid acceptance of the order, until the customer has come in and collected it (completion). 🤷‍♀️

Not really - it just aligns Argos Click and Collect with any other retail purchase where offer, acceptance and completion happen, to all intents and purposes, simultaneously.

The offer is the order through the website, it details what the customer is buying, what they will pay and what the terms of sale are.

That is all established prior to entering the store with a just collection code. 

Okell

But a consumer contract requires the consumer (the offeror) to make an offer, and the trader (the offeree) to accept the offer.

The contract is formed when the offer is accepted by the trader - not before and not after.

The consumer can't accept their own offer, so I don't see how the trader's T&Cs - no matter what they say - can dictate that a contrcat is only formed when the consumer collects the goods.

The contract has already been formed at that point - probably when the trader informs the consumer that goods are ready for collection - and both parties can enforce it from there.

Grumpy_chap

Okell said:

But a consumer contract requires the consumer (the offeror) to make an offer, and the trader (the offeree) to accept the offer.

The contract is formed when the offer is accepted by the trader - not before and not after.

The consumer can't accept their own offer, so I don't see how the trader's T&Cs - no matter what they say - can dictate that a contrcat is only formed when the consumer collects the goods.

The contract has already been formed at that point - probably when the trader informs the consumer that goods are ready for collection - and both parties can enforce it from there.

I am not sure that the offer and acceptance has occurred at that point.

As I explained a little upthtread, that might be just an Invitation to Treat.

It is the same as picking up a tin of beans in the Supermarket which the shelf says is 75 pence.  The offer to purchase is only made when at the checkout.  Usually, the offer is made at the advertised price and that leads to acceptance and completion.  All virtually simultaneously.

A_Geordie

Grumpy_chap said:

I am not sure that the offer and acceptance has occurred at that point.

As I explained a little upthtread, that might be just an Invitation to Treat.

It is the same as picking up a tin of beans in the Supermarket which the shelf says is 75 pence.  The offer to purchase is only made when at the checkout.  Usually, the offer is made at the advertised price and that leads to acceptance and completion.  All virtually simultaneously.

But in order to collect the goods the customer must be notified that the goods are ready to collect. Logically, Argos must have accepted the customer's offer prior to collection. If they didn't accept the offer, the goods wouldn't be available for collection. Trying to argue the conclusion of the contract at the point of collection is more form over substance. 

There's no definition in the CCRs as to what a 'concluded' contract means but given that the regulations are intended for consumer protection, I don't believe it is acceptable to allow the trader to subjectively dictate or determine the point of conclusion, to the consumer's detriment - effectively contracting out of the CCRs. As I mentioned in a previous post, I am of the opinion that the point at which a contract is concluded, will be an objective test i.e. what would the reasonable person think the contract is concluded. 

There's a Supreme Court decision (RTS Flexible Systems Molkerei Alois Müller Gmbh & Company KG) that succinctly summarises this position: 

It depends not upon their subjective state of mind, but upon a consideration of what was communicated between them by words or conduct, and whether that leads objectively to a conclusion that they intended to create legal relations and had agreed upon all the terms which they regarded or the law requires as essential for the formation of legally binding relations. Even if certain terms of economic or other significance to the parties have not been finalised, an objective appraisal of their words and conduct may lead to the conclusion that they did not intend agreement of such terms to be a pre-condition to a concluded and legally binding agreement. 

There is also the EU guidance back in 2014 and in the updated 2021 version post-Brexit states that:

Although simply taking of an appointment with the trader is not considered a distance contract, a binding reservation made, for example, by telephone of goods to be collected or services to be received at a certain time is likely to constitute a distance contract for the purposes of the Directive.

If the OP or any other Argos customer were to purse legal action, I think Argos is going to have an uphill struggle persuading a court to accept that the EU guidance should be disregarded or is wrong in its interpretation especially when the UK was a member state of the EU at the time this document was drafted.

As far as I see, the click and collect terms are written as a way to deflect or avoid liability and hope that consumers will just accept that position, which will save money in the long run over the few that look past the terms and challenge them in court, at which point the sensible thing for Argos to do is to settle those claims to avoid having a court giving a legal interpretation which could ultimately cause them a greater deal of financial harm in the long run.   

sheramber

But is the problem here not that the OP is wanting to return an iron that she has used and doesn’t like. 

Argos’refusal is because she has used it. 

Jenni_D

If it's a distance contract then Argos have no lawful right to refuse. Yes, they can reduce the amount of refund to account for usage, but they can't flat out refuse the return and (partial?) refund.