Argos refusing to accept return

Alderbank

Okell said:

KevinRW said:

But my understanding was that for online purchases you had 14 days to change your mind for any reason.

No I don't think the item is technically faulty, just doesn't work in a way I am happy with.

You are allowed to "handle" the iron sufficiently to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of it, but you are not generally allowed to handle it more than you would be allowed to in a shop

With respect, I think that is confusing and not what the regs say.

Saying "not allowed" implies you have lost your right to cancel the contract.

The regs don't say anything is 'not allowed', in fact they seem to accept that in the privacy of their own home consumers will do whatever they like. What the regs actually say (reg34(9)) is that if the value of the goods is diminished as a result of handling of the goods beyond what is necessary, the trader may recover that amount from the consumer, up to the full price.

Reg34(12) defines "necessary" as going beyond the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop. But nothing to say it is not allowed.

Jenni_D

Undervalued said:

Okell said:

So far as I know, online click and collect is treated as a distance sale for the purposes of the The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

I'm sure this has cropped up with Argos before.

.........

And whether it's worth the hasssle over £16 is another matter...

Okell said:

KevinRW said:

But my understanding was that for online purchases you had 14 days to change your mind for any reason.

No I don't think the item is technically faulty, just doesn't work in a way I am happy with.

Not quite.

To exercise your statutory right to cancel a distance contract you have to clearly tell the seller that you are cancelling the contract.  Have you done so?

If you did tell them, then in theory Argos cannot refuse your cancellation and return, but they will be entitled to make a deduction from your refund of up to 100% of the purchase value to reflect any dimunition in value caused by your use of the iron.  You are allowed to "handle" the iron sufficiently to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of it, but you are not generally allowed to handle it more than you would be allowed to in a shop

And that is assuming it is a distance contract. My understand is that it is not automatic for click and collect and depends on exactly what happened, or could have happened, on collection.

If you've paid online then Click & Collect is merely the delivery mechanism - it's still an online (distance) transaction. If you've Reserved & Collected (i.e. pay on collection) then it isn't.

Undervalued

Jenni_D said:

Undervalued said:

Okell said:

So far as I know, online click and collect is treated as a distance sale for the purposes of the The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

I'm sure this has cropped up with Argos before.

.........

And whether it's worth the hasssle over £16 is another matter...

Okell said:

KevinRW said:

But my understanding was that for online purchases you had 14 days to change your mind for any reason.

No I don't think the item is technically faulty, just doesn't work in a way I am happy with.

Not quite.

To exercise your statutory right to cancel a distance contract you have to clearly tell the seller that you are cancelling the contract.  Have you done so?

If you did tell them, then in theory Argos cannot refuse your cancellation and return, but they will be entitled to make a deduction from your refund of up to 100% of the purchase value to reflect any dimunition in value caused by your use of the iron.  You are allowed to "handle" the iron sufficiently to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of it, but you are not generally allowed to handle it more than you would be allowed to in a shop

And that is assuming it is a distance contract. My understand is that it is not automatic for click and collect and depends on exactly what happened, or could have happened, on collection.

If you've paid online then Click & Collect is merely the delivery mechanism - it's still an online (distance) transaction. If you've Reserved & Collected (i.e. pay on collection) then it isn't.

OK, that is a logical take on it. However, has that actually be ruled on or is it just a popular interpretation?

GrumpyDil

Interestingly this was discussed on a recent Martin Lewis podcast and he explained that Argos' view is that reserving online and collecting on store is not a distant contract as the contract is not concluded until you get the goods handed to you in store.

Undervalued

Alderbank said:

Okell said:

KevinRW said:

But my understanding was that for online purchases you had 14 days to change your mind for any reason.

No I don't think the item is technically faulty, just doesn't work in a way I am happy with.

You are allowed to "handle" the iron sufficiently to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of it, but you are not generally allowed to handle it more than you would be allowed to in a shop

With respect, I think that is confusing and not what the regs say.

Saying "not allowed" implies you have lost your right to cancel the contract.

The regs don't say anything is 'not allowed', in fact they seem to accept that in the privacy of their own home consumers will do whatever they like. What the regs actually say (reg34(9)) is that if the value of the goods is diminished as a result of handling of the goods beyond what is necessary, the trader may recover that amount from the consumer, up to the full price.

Reg34(12) defines "necessary" as going beyond the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop. But nothing to say it is not allowed.

Which putting water in it, heating it up and ironing a few shirts clearly is!

I don't think anybody (apart from maybe initially the OP) is arguing that the value of the item hasn't been diminished so Argos would be quite entitled to make a proportionate deduction from any refund.

Brie

I'd go back to the ad for this on the Argos website.   Does it say anything about "smooth ironing" "non stick" etc?  If so then I'd claim false advertising as the OP says "I used it once and didn't get on with it (sticking to clothes rucking them up, ...)"

I wouldn't expect a iron to stick to clothes assuming the temperature settings are correct/accurate and I don't know how an iron would "ruck up" clothing unless there was some abrasion on the plate.

Jenni_D

GrumpyDil said:

Interestingly this was discussed on a recent Martin Lewis podcast and he explained that Argos' view is that reserving online and collecting on store is not a distant contract as the contract is not concluded until you get the goods handed to you in store.

Which was why I specifically distinguished between Reserve & Collect and Click & Collect.  

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

GrumpyDil said:

Interestingly this was discussed on a recent Martin Lewis podcast and he explained that Argos' view is that reserving online and collecting on store is not a distant contract as the contract is not concluded until you get the goods handed to you in store.

This is correct, in that it is the view Argos are taking, it hasn't been tested so no one seems to know. EU guidance is pasted below and if you Google there are few websites dealing with car sales where they say this kind of set up is a distance contract.

IIRC Argos say in their terms on the website that the contract is formed upon collection, this has been discussed here before and again no conclusion was drawn as to whether or not this is a valid way of forming a contract which seems to be the key aspect.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52021XC1229(04)&qid=1640961745514

4.1.    Definition of a distance contract

Article 2 defines distance contracts as follows: ’(7) ‘distance contract’ means any contract concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded’.

Recital 20 provides further explanations of this concept, including examples of means of distance communication: ‘The definition of distance contract should cover all cases where a contract is concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication ( such as mail order, internet, telephone or fax ) up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded. That definition should also cover situations where the consumer visits the business premises merely for the purpose of gathering information about the goods or services and subsequently negotiates and concludes the contract at a distance. By contrast, a contract which is negotiated at the business premises of the trader and finally concluded by means of distance communication should not be considered a distance contract. Neither should a contract initiated by means of distance communication, but finally concluded at the business premises of the trader be considered a distance contract. Similarly, the concept of distance contract should not include reservations made by a consumer through a means of distance communications to request the provision of a service from a professional, such as in the case of a consumer phoning to request an appointment with a hairdresser. […]’.

In concluding a distance contract, the parties may also use a combination of several different means of distance communication (e.g. website, mobile app, or phone call). The fact that parties meet each other after concluding the distance contract, typically at the time of delivery or payment, should not change the classification of a contract as a distance contract. If the consumer has merely visited the business premises to gather information about the goods or services, the contract that they subsequently negotiate and conclude with the trader at a distance should be considered a distance contract. Although simply taking of an appointment with the trader is not considered a distance contract, a binding reservation made, for example, by telephone of goods to be collected or services to be received at a certain time is likely to constitute a distance contract for the purposes of the Directive.

The Directive only applies to distance contracts concluded under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme. For example, if a trader only exceptionally concludes a contract with a consumer by email or telephone, after being contacted by the consumer, such a contract should not be considered a distance contract under the Directive. However, it is not necessary that the trader puts in place a complex organisation, such as online interface, for distance sales. Also simpler arrangements, such as promoting the use of email or telephone for the conclusion of contracts with consumers would trigger the application of the CRD requirements.

The trader may use an online marketplace for the conclusion of contracts subject to the Directive. As explained in Recital 20: ‘[…] The notion of an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme should include those schemes offered by a third party other than the trader but used by the trader, such as an online platform. It should not, however, cover cases where websites merely offer information on the trader, his goods and/or services and his contact details.’

The application of the CRD does not depend on the technology used by a trader. It is irrelevant if a consumer concludes a ‘normal’ distance contract over the internet or uses blockchain execution technology

prowla

Undervalued said:

Are you saying that the item is actually faulty?

Unlike a distance sale a shop does not have to allow change of mind returns (unless their terms and conditions choose to offer that).

Presumably, had you chosen to do so, you could have inspected the item in the branch, just as you could have in any other physical shop? If so then I don't think this counts as a distance sale so it all depends on Argos published policy on returns unless actually faulty.

Even if you had bought the iron at distance (mail order) filling it with water and ironing clothes would go well beyond reasonably inspecting the goods. So, although you would have had a right to return it the retailer could make a reduction in refund to reflect its reduced value.

Visually inspecting it wouldn't have given any information regarding how it performed in use.

Money_Grabber13579

Jenni_D said:

GrumpyDil said:

Interestingly this was discussed on a recent Martin Lewis podcast and he explained that Argos' view is that reserving online and collecting on store is not a distant contract as the contract is not concluded until you get the goods handed to you in store.

Which was why I specifically distinguished between Reserve & Collect and Click & Collect.  

Is that a difference which Argos offer though? The last couple of times I’ve bought through Argos, I had to pay online even though I was collecting in store.