Argos refusing to accept return

Okell

Undervalued said:

Okell said:

So far as I know, online click and collect is treated as a distance sale for the purposes of the The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

I'm sure this has cropped up with Argos before.

.........

And whether it's worth the hasssle over £16 is another matter...

Okell said:

KevinRW said:

But my understanding was that for online purchases you had 14 days to change your mind for any reason.

No I don't think the item is technically faulty, just doesn't work in a way I am happy with.

Not quite.

To exercise your statutory right to cancel a distance contract you have to clearly tell the seller that you are cancelling the contract.  Have you done so?

If you did tell them, then in theory Argos cannot refuse your cancellation and return, but they will be entitled to make a deduction from your refund of up to 100% of the purchase value to reflect any dimunition in value caused by your use of the iron.  You are allowed to "handle" the iron sufficiently to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of it, but you are not generally allowed to handle it more than you would be allowed to in a shop

And that is assuming it is a distance contract. My understand is that it is not automatic for click and collect and depends on exactly what happened, or could have happened, on collection.

Like so many things that get debated endlessly on here, unless the point has been tested in a high enough court to set a binding precedent it is all opinion. I am not aware that it has? 

We've had at least two threads on here about Argos and their take on click and collect.

In the one thread Argos claimed click and collect was not a distance contract but eventually backed down and paid a refund on a laptop as "goodwill".  How kind of them.

In their last post on that thread the OP said they had also asked CAB about click and collect and CAB had confirmed that click and collect in their view was a distance contract

I need help getting a refund from Argos with PC - Page 8 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

In the other one I don't think the OP got back with how they got on returning a 'phone, but @A_Geordie commented that he had tried cancelling a click and collect purchase as a distance sale and that Argos finally relented and coughed up after he issued a claim against them.

Argos, click and collect. Distance sale or not? - Page 4 — MoneySavingExpert Forum


I suspect Argos are not very confident themselves of their argument that click and collect is not a distance contract

A_Geordie

Pointless trying to even argue with Argos staff (or any other company for that matter) on the points when it comes to distance selling, they will just have their policy and they will stick to it. Technical arguments such as this need to be pursued by legal proceedings or someone with enough clout to get a refund on your behalf like those consumer rights champions offered by some media. 

For what it's worth, I think Argos' terms that says the contract is only concluded when the goods are collected is an attempt to contract out of the CCRs because at what point a contract has been concluded will be determined using the objective test, not a subjective one. The EU guidance is already pretty clear and Argos would essentially be saying that the EU guidance is simply wrong - good luck with that!

I think someone has already mentioned that the collection part is just a mechanism, and I agree. Before that the payment and transaction have all completed or at the latest when the customer has been notified the goods are ready to collect - that is essentially Argos saying we accept your offer and agree to enter into a contract with you. That in my view would be the latest point at which the contract has been concluded before the customer is even in the shop. Still a distance sale in my opinion. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Alderbank said:

A very interesting post.

This Law Commission report, commissioned by the Government and issued in 2021 by lawyers who were indeed paid vast fortunes to produce its hundred plus pages and thousands of learned words, is of relevance and interest to your post.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/61b9feade90e070449d49fd1/Transfer-of-ownership-report-and-bill.pdf

The report debates whether the current law wherein the two parties are free to agree the exact point of acceptance as a contract term is in the best interest of consumers, particularly for internet sales, and whether the Consumer Rights Act should be changed to define the point of acceptance.

Thanks @Alderbank interesting reading, it does answer one question previously brought up on these kinds of threads, noting if the T&Cs don't state when acceptance occurs the retailer charging the customers card is likely to be viewed as acceptance. 

The mention of the whole delaying acceptance causing a significant imbalance in the parties rights is also interesting. 

I can understand the need for retailers to delay acceptance, although agree the customer can end up out of pocket if the firm goes bust due to no S75 cover, but here it feels Argos is pushing it very far for their advantage, like they do with all their policies surrounding consumer rights, I'm not sure how such a well known business actually gets away with it. 

Silvertabby

subjecttocontract said:

I'm not aware of any retailers that provide a 'sale or return' offer or a 'try it and see if you like it' policy.  

QVC do      .

Grumpy_chap

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said: 

The mention of the whole delaying acceptance causing a significant imbalance in the parties rights is also interesting. 

I can understand the need for retailers to delay acceptance, although agree the customer can end up out of pocket if the firm goes bust due to no S75 cover, but here it feels Argos is pushing it very far for their advantage, like they do with all their policies surrounding consumer rights, I'm not sure how such a well known business actually gets away with it. 

I am not sure why the delayed acceptance by Argos creates an imbalance.

AIUI, Argos view is that acceptance is when the goods are collected in store.

IIRC, when I have used Argos Click and Collect, you pay online, then get an email once the goods are available to collect which says the goods will be held for you for X days.  If you don't go to collect, the order is simply refunded back to you.

Jenni_D

Is it automatically refunded? (I'm sure I've read threads here before touching on this issue). Or do you have to chase it? If the latter then I'd suggest that there is an imbalance. 🤷‍♀️

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Grumpy_chap said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said: 

The mention of the whole delaying acceptance causing a significant imbalance in the parties rights is also interesting. 

I can understand the need for retailers to delay acceptance, although agree the customer can end up out of pocket if the firm goes bust due to no S75 cover, but here it feels Argos is pushing it very far for their advantage, like they do with all their policies surrounding consumer rights, I'm not sure how such a well known business actually gets away with it. 

I am not sure why the delayed acceptance by Argos creates an imbalance.

AIUI, Argos view is that acceptance is when the goods are collected in store.

IIRC, when I have used Argos Click and Collect, you pay online, then get an email once the goods are available to collect which says the goods will be held for you for X days.  If you don't go to collect, the order is simply refunded back to you.

The entire concept of delaying acceptance (by all retailers) may cause imbalance, not my words, those in the doc linked to, including a quote from the CMA. 

Okell

Grumpy_chap said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said: 

The mention of the whole delaying acceptance causing a significant imbalance in the parties rights is also interesting. 

I can understand the need for retailers to delay acceptance, although agree the customer can end up out of pocket if the firm goes bust due to no S75 cover, but here it feels Argos is pushing it very far for their advantage, like they do with all their policies surrounding consumer rights, I'm not sure how such a well known business actually gets away with it. 

I am not sure why the delayed acceptance by Argos creates an imbalance.

AIUI, Argos view is that acceptance is when the goods are collected in store.

IIRC, when I have used Argos Click and Collect, you pay online, then get an email once the goods are available to collect which says the goods will be held for you for X days.  If you don't go to collect, the order is simply refunded back to you.

I think I've made this point before on the other Argos threads.

How can something the consumer does (collecting the item) be something only the trader can do (accepting the consumer's offer)?

So the consumer makes an offer to buy and then accepts their own offer by collecting the goods?

Only Argos can accept the offer to buy from the consumer.  In my view that is probably when they notify the consumer the item is ready for collection

Okell

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Grumpy_chap said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said: 

The mention of the whole delaying acceptance causing a significant imbalance in the parties rights is also interesting. 

I can understand the need for retailers to delay acceptance, although agree the customer can end up out of pocket if the firm goes bust due to no S75 cover, but here it feels Argos is pushing it very far for their advantage, like they do with all their policies surrounding consumer rights, I'm not sure how such a well known business actually gets away with it. 

I am not sure why the delayed acceptance by Argos creates an imbalance.

AIUI, Argos view is that acceptance is when the goods are collected in store.

IIRC, when I have used Argos Click and Collect, you pay online, then get an email once the goods are available to collect which says the goods will be held for you for X days.  If you don't go to collect, the order is simply refunded back to you.

The entire concept of delaying acceptance (by all retailers) may cause imbalance, not my words, those in the doc linked to, including a quote from the CMA. 

I've always thought delayed acceptance is prejudicial to the consumer not least because it causes difficulty chasing up delayed delivery under s28.

Can a consumer chase up late delivery if the trader has not yet accepted their offer?

Grumpy_chap

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The entire concept of delaying acceptance (by all retailers) may cause imbalance, not my words, those in the doc linked to, including a quote from the CMA. 

MAY not DOES 

Okell said:

I think I've made this point before on the other Argos threads.

How can something the consumer does (collecting the item) be something only the trader can do (accepting the consumer's offer)?

So the consumer makes an offer to buy and then accepts their own offer by collecting the goods?

Only Argos can accept the offer to buy from the consumer.  In my view that is probably when they notify the consumer the item is ready for collection

Maybe the whole online reservation and pre-payment is nothing more than a Statement of Intent.

The customer says "I intend to buy a xxx for £yyy so please can you prepare my order for collection?  I understand that requires an effort on your part, so as an indicator of my seriousness of intent I will deposit the funds.  The effort to prepare the order for collection is entirely at your (Argos) risk."

Argos prepare the goods for collection and notify the customer that the goods are available.

The customer arrives at the store and offers to conclude the contract and Argos accept the offer by handover of the goods.

Or, the customer might just never attend the store so the money is refunded.

Or, Argos might never prepare the goods for collection so the money is refunded.