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Scot_39

jodie264 said:

They charged me a SNUG rate while I was on Snug - 9p night rate v around 15p E7. 
.....
They reversed all the SNUG charges (around £707) 
.....

When I asked why, I was told my meter was incompatible with SNUG.  
.....  
These have been replaced with an estimated charge of £1956 for the period 11th Dec 24 to 11th Sept 25.
 

I suppose it's possible - if they have reverted all the Snug bills back to Dec - that perhaps an admission they via Snugs dynamic alcs timing method was never really working / your meter not dynamically controlled to switch your heating.

The use of the word estimated also worrying - are you saying your meter wasn't reliably being read for actual use - so bills not based on smart meter readings - but estimated ones - or do up you mean recalculated.  If it wax losing connection for readings it certainly likely not to have worked on snug.

That not only the afternoon boost - iirc you said in an earlier post you thought you never saw that working - but the core 6 hours wasn't working either. 

I wonder if you can see daily 1/2 hourly use on their portal that far back  - or via an app like bright - to go back and have a look at what was going on tariff / ALCS if can see via kWh use wise (heaters etc often wont run for the whole say snug 6 core or e7 7 hr off peak window - so it's not always easy) - but you might see something at either end - as your smart meter will still have the data (13months worth).

I do wonder how often it was working - if at all - and how often it wasnt.

You could perhaps as suggested above  - being misled say by the system working default say E7 as far as HW and heating operating - the snug core 0030 0630 isnt that different from many default e7 0000 to 0700 or 0030 to 0730 etc nominal timings and trusted as the bills said 9p charged for most of that off peak heating - possibly all of it - it was all working.

But their is no excuse for them not spotting that and so sorting out the billing far earlier if was as the CS OP said - meter is incompatible.  (I don't suppose that you got that in writing ?)

That might have realistically meant the more expensive rates applying anyway - but then if they told you say in January your rates were higher - you would have known - and had chance to react.  Even if only to moderate use.  But you might have had alternatives.  Supplier - some suppliers offer much cheaper e7 rates for some regions at least to suit high off peak users for instance.  Others even tou possibly - but maybe not - as may require some wiring changes to install self timing.

I am not sure if it might get you anywhere - but if your looking for a possible challange.

I would be intrigued to know if other forumites might think it worth say pursuing an argument something along the lines of turning around 2.14.7 and 2.14.9 in your Snug contract back on them...

The contract T&Cs are for them to revert after 30 days failure to control - but not arguably perhaps a shorter /  brief failure.

Like any contract between two parties - it should work both ways.

If they thought it was working well enough not to revert the tariff on your bills and put you on another tariff - for 3-4 months - and so if they left you on Snug for longer - shouldn't they then honour the tariff rates inc 9p snug off peak rates. 

As they are the ones responsible for monitoring that 30day condition - not the customer - it's their failure.
As per their T&Cs - they should have acted earlier - or at least arguably they should have acted earlier.

You might still lose the last 30 days - but maybe not the full period - Dec - Apr etc. 

Id certainly maybe asking them for an exact list of dates over the 4 months
- when they think snug smart scheduling  worked - if Snug control ever worked
- when they spotted it didn't
- when and what they tried to restart it (they have with others and its worked for a bit)
- and of course the dates they think it didn't respond at all so you meter reverted to e7 presets overnight.

It might make depressing reading - but it might prove they weren't monitoring for 30d failure correctly. 

If I thought my off peak was being billed at 9p - (its been double that on e10) - id be tempted to be less tight with temperatures and so use more energy for instance.  By not informing you for 4 months maybe you had too.

Phones4Chris

Scot_39 said:

jodie264 said:

They charged me a SNUG rate while I was on Snug - 9p night rate v around 15p E7. 
.....
They reversed all the SNUG charges (around £707) 
.....

When I asked why, I was told my meter was incompatible with SNUG.  
.....  
These have been replaced with an estimated charge of £1956 for the period 11th Dec 24 to 11th Sept 25.
 

The use of the word estimated also worrying - are you saying your meter wasn't reliably being read for actual use - so bills not based on smart meter readings - but estimated ones - or do up you mean recalculated.  If it wax losing connection for readings it certainly likely not to have worked on snug.

That not only the afternoon boost - iirc you said in an earlier post you thought you never saw that working - but the core 6 hours wasn't working either. 

I wonder if you can see daily 1/2 hourly use on their portal that far back  - or via an app like bright - to go back and have a look at what was going on tariff / ALCS if can see via kWh use wise (heaters etc often wont run for the whole say snug 6 core or e7 7 hr off peak window - so it's not always easy) - but you might see something at either end - as your smart meter will still have the data (13months worth).

IIRC without looking back @jodie264 did say she was getting 33 page bills with all the 1/2hr usage whilst on Snug.
She isn't the only Snug user that's having problems with the lack of afternoon boost either.
So I tend to think that all you rather wild speculation is a bit of hot air!

jodie264

scot_39  Ive copied, pasted and replied to your points in the body of your text.  

I suppose it's possible - if they have reverted all the Snug bills back to Dec - that perhaps an admission they via Snugs dynamic alcs timing method was never really working / your meter not dynamically controlled to switch your heating. IT MUST HAVE BEEN OR I WOULD HAVE HAD NO HEAT OR HOT WATER

The use of the word estimated also worrying - are you saying your meter wasn't reliably being read for actual use - so bills not based on smart meter readings - but estimated ones - or do up you mean recalculated.  If it wax losing connection for readings it certainly likely not to have worked on snug.  I THINK IT MAY MEAN RECALCULATED BUT I HAVE ALL MY BILLS BACK TO EVEN BEFORE THE SMART METER WAS INSTALLED.  

 

That not only the afternoon boost - iirc you said in an earlier post you thought you never saw that working - but the core 6 hours wasn't working either. AFTERNOON NEVER WORKED BUT OVERNIGHT ALWAYS WORKED AS IT HAD WITH E7.  I KNOW THIS BECAUSE THE HOT WATER LIGHT CAME ON AROUND 12.0 AND WAS ON UNTIL EARLY MORNING.  I WAS UNABLE TO CHECK HEATERS BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL WHEN THEY ARE SWITCHED ON – ONLY THAT THEY HEAT UP.  I DIDN’T EVEN NEED TO CHECK BECAUSE BY THE TIME THEY STOPPED SNUG, I HAD TURNED THE HEATING OFF ANYWAY.

I wonder if you can see daily 1/2 hourly use on their portal that far back  - or via an app like bright - to go back and have a look at what was going on tariff / ALCS if can see via kWh use wise (heaters etc often wont run for the whole say snug 6 core or e7 7 hr off peak window - so it's not always easy) - but you might see something at either end - as your smart meter will still have the data (13months worth).  I HAVE ALL THE SNUG BILLS SHOWING HALF HOURLY READINGS, INCLUDING THE COST AND KWH. 

I do wonder how often it was working - if at all - and how often it wasnt.  MY HEATING AND HOT WATER ALWAYS WORKED ON THE OLD E7 TARIFF AND ALWAYS WORKED ON THE NEW SNUG TARIFF.  THERE HAS BEEN NO BREAK IN SERVICE – HOT WATER ONLY CURRENTLY...  AS AN EX TEACHER, I DON’T PUT IT BACK ON UNTIL OCTOBER HALF TERM!

You could perhaps as suggested above  - being misled say by the system working default say E7 as far as HW and heating operating - the snug core 0030 0630 isnt that different from many default e7 0000 to 0700 or 0030 to 0730 etc nominal timings and trusted as the bills said 9p charged for most of that off peak heating - possibly all of it - it was all working.  THE HEATING TIMES CHANGED WITH THE SNUG TARIFF BUT ONLY BY LOSING MAYBE AN HOUR BUT THAT WAS FINE BY ME…ID NEVER BEEN ABLE TO HAVE IT ON FOR LESS TIME BEFORE BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER HAD CONTROL OVER IT.

But their is no excuse for them not spotting that and so sorting out the billing far earlier if was as the CS OP said - meter is incompatible.  (I don't suppose that you got that in writing ?)  OH YES, APART FROM A CALL ABOUT TAKING THE SURPLUS CREDIT. EVERYTHING HAS BEEN DONE BY EMAIL.  I HAVE SAVED ALL OF THEM AS A TIMELINE INTO A WORD DOC FOR EVIDENCE FOR THE OMBUDSMAN. 

That might have realistically meant the more expensive rates applying anyway - but then if they told you say in January your rates were higher - you would have known - and had chance to react.  Even if only to moderate use.  But you might have had alternatives.  Supplier - some suppliers offer much cheaper e7 rates for some regions at least to suit high off peak users for instance.  Others even tou possibly - but maybe not - as may require some wiring changes to install self timing.  I DIDN’T USE ANY MORE BECAUSE IT WAS CHEAPER – IT WAS JUST GREAT THAT HERE WAS A TARIIF THAT WOULD REDUCE MY BILLS AND DID = £707 DEC 24 TO APRIL 25 ON SNUG V 889 DEC 23 TO APR 24 ON FIXED LOYAL OCTOPUS

I am not sure if it might get you anywhere - but if your looking for a possible challange.   I HAVE PLENTY TO STICK TO THEM...THE MORE I CONTACT THEM THE MORE NAILS THEY PROVIDE ME WITH!

I would be intrigued to know if other forumites might think it worth say pursuing an argument something along the lines of turning around 2.14.7 and 2.14.9 in your Snug contract back on them...

The contract T&Cs are for them to revert after 30 days failure to control - but not arguably perhaps a shorter /  brief failure.  I JUST WANT TO BE BACK WHERE I WOULD HAVE BEEN HAD THEY NOT PULLED ME OFF SNUG, WHEN I WAS IN CREDIT FOR A COUPLE OF HUNDRED £S AND IT WOULD BE GOOD IF I COULD GET THE AFTERNOON BOOST.   

Like any contract between two parties - it should work both ways.

If they thought it was working well enough not to revert the tariff on your bills and put you on another tariff - for 3-4 months - and so if they left you on Snug for longer - shouldn't they then honour the tariff rates inc 9p snug off peak rates. THAT WOULD BE MY MAIN POINT, AND I HAVE GIVEN THEM EVERY CHANCE TO DO THIS, BUT THEY BLAME THE METER

As they are the ones responsible for monitoring that 30day condition - not the customer - it's their failure.  I AGREE
As per their T&Cs - they should perhaps have acted earlier - arguably theyvshould have acted earlier.  I AGREE, BUT MY OTHER MAIN POINT IS THAT THEY DIDN’T EVEN NEED TO.  THEY SAID THERE WAS A PROBLEM WHEN THERE WASN’T ONE

You might still lose the last 30 days - but maybe not the full period - Dec - Apr etc. I DON’T INTEND LOSING ANYTHING. I AM SO IN THE RIGHT ABOUT THIS!!!

Id certainly maybe asking them for an exact list of dates over the 4 months
- when they think snug smart scheduling  worked - if Snug control ever worked
- when they spotted it didn't
- when and what they tried to restart it (they have with others and its worked for a bit)
- and of course the dates they think it didn't respond at all so you meter reverted to e7 presets overnight.

I HAVE DONE ALL THIS AND PRESENTED THE QUESTIONS IN SO MANY WAYS, ALMOST LAYING IT OUT FOR THEM TO OWN UP, BUT THEY HAVE NO LOGIC.  SNUG WORKED! THEY DECIDED IT DIDN’T MID APRIL!  THEY TOLD ME IN MY APR TO MAY BILL! THAT BILL ALSO  PRESENTED ME WITH A 606 DEBT!  I HAD RECEIVED 400 OF MY 550 CREDIT JUST A FEW DAYS BEFORE.  NEITHER E7 NOR SNUG HAVE EVER NOT WORKED - NEVER!

It might make depressing reading - but it might prove they weren't monitoring for 30d failure correctly. 

If I thought my off peak was being billed at 9p - (its been double that on e10) - id be tempted to be less tight with temperatures and so use more energy for instance.  By not informing you for 4 months maybe you had too.  NO I DIDN’T, I JUST THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT TO HAVE GOT A GOOD DEAL.  THE ONLY THING WAS THE AFTERNOON BOOST. TBH, I COULD NEVER SEE HOW THEY COULD TURN ON OFF PEAK HEATING AND HOT WATER AROUND 1.AM AND KEEP IT ON UNTIL AROUND 7 AM BUT BE UNABLE TO DO THE SAME BETWEEN 3 AND 4.  IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE BUT TBH, I ASKED A COUPLE OF TIMES, CHASED IT AND THEY ASKED IF I WANTED TO COME OFF THE TARIFF (AROUND CHRISTMAS).  I SAID NO, I WAS FINE BECAUSE THE TARIFF WOULD SAVE ME MONEY REGARDLESS.    

Scot_39

jodie264 said:

scot_39  Ive copied, pasted and replied to your points in the body of your text.  

I suppose it's possible - if they have reverted all the Snug bills back to Dec - that perhaps an admission they via Snugs dynamic alcs timing method was never really working / your meter not dynamically controlled to switch your heating. IT MUST HAVE BEEN OR I WOULD HAVE HAD NO HEAT OR HOT WATER

NO - thats not my understanding at all.

But note I am not on Snug - but I have read posts from those on it / off it and back on it - and the T&Cs - and I believe thats a fundamental misunderstanding of how Snug operates - and why I have referred you the two very specific clauses on what they say to expect to happen when they fail to control your meter - and what happens when they consistently fail to control your meter.

So assuming you came as you say from vanilla 7 hour single block overnight E7 presets.

You dont lose 6 hours - you get the original standard 7 hours.  

https://octopus.energy/policies/smart-tariffs-terms-and-condition/#snugoctopus

why do I think that - just to emphasis the point I'll risk breaking forum rules - and post the actual contract clause.

"2.14.9 If for any reason we are unable to charge your storage heaters according to an optimised schedule (for example, because we lose contact with your smart meter) your storage heaters will charge according to the set schedule you had before you joined Snug Octopus and you will be charged the day rate for any charging that happens outside of the off-peak hours."

Snug - unless they brought the window forward - which they do - would not by core hours switch anything on at midnight - its start time is 00:30 plus any meter response offset.

They appear to not over write the preset meter ALCS times - so if they dont successfully control the meter you get preset - not nothing.

I don't pretend to understand the exact mechanism for doing so - just the net result - but my whole point is you would still get hot water and heating.

So just to labour what I thnk may have been going on - if say your E7 times were nominal 00:00 - 07:00 - and there was no extension to the snug 6 hour core 0030 0630 timings and they were failing to control your meter

From 00:00 to 00:30 - your heating power would be on on E7 presets - but charged snug day rate ?

From 00:30 to 06:30 - your heating power would be on on E7 presets - and charged 9p off peak rate ?

From 06:30 to 07:00 - your heating power would be on on E7 presets - but charged snug day rate ?

As such I suspect you might - based on phyiscal evidence - HW and hot heaters - have been labouring possibly for months - possibly the full 4 months - under a false apprehension - that the tariff was actually working.

We dont have access to the half hourly data and the billing in your case - only you and Octopus have.

If I am correct - and you really need to be convinced I am on that fundamental point - I may be shot down imminently - revert to preset not zero heating - before you have chance of understanding the rest of my posts above.

The user I spoke about being on - off - on - off - I believe moved supplier - was @vienna28 - and had some 1/2 hourly example charts. 

His typical 1/2 hourly tariff and timing chart when snug control looked OK - night and afternoon - something like the one posted here

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81408567/#Comment_81408567

His typical 1/2 hourly tariff and timing chart when we perhaps wrongly concluded snug had lost control of the meter - looked more like this example

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81428444/#Comment_81428444

Its well worth reading his posts.

And just to reaffirm the 2.14.9 description above his comments in the same thread

"I have had to email Octopus because when they switched off my off peak afternoon hour on the 29th April it also switched my timings back to my former economy 7 hours.  So hot water and Storage heaters can now only come on between 1:37am to 8:37am.  So I have to make sure everything is manually switched off by 6:30am or I could use over two extra hours at peak rate. "

And the getting back on active snug came several days after that - in the post here

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81444596/#Comment_81444596

I may well have influenced by telling about 2.14.9 as a potential reason - but as a customer with problems - and no doubt conversations with CS reps at Octopus - hoping @vienna28 will come back and impart a final take after repeat problems - and either agree with my basic premise.  Or disagree.

That you dont lose heating - you revert - and get potentially mis-billed - for short term failures at least - I suspect at snug rates - but just worried re that "two extra hours at peak rate" - so was that snug peak or e7 peak ? comment now typing this.

And the short term bit - is potentially the bit before you hit the 30 days in 2.14.7 - when they kick customers off snug completely.

Have a read of the posts in the series of vienna28 posts above in that problems thread - it might - with the help of Octopus 1/2 hourly chart examples - help you understand what I am trying to describe as the problems you were experiencing.  I havent actually checked the rates charged that day vs the snug active day - I mistrust the scaling anyway - so would need a user to check.

And so if I am right - I believe it's clouding your understanding of what was happening - and what therefore should have been happening - from your end and theirs - so further down in your response for instance - 

As they are the ones responsible for monitoring that 30day condition - not the customer - it's their failure.  I AGREE
As per their T&Cs - they should perhaps have acted earlier - arguably theyvshould have acted earlier.  I AGREE, BUT MY OTHER MAIN POINT IS THAT THEY DIDN’T EVEN NEED TO.  THEY SAID THERE WAS A PROBLEM WHEN THERE WASN’T ONE

so yet again IMO  - NO

I disagree and believe they were telling you the truth - there was a real problem - for exactly how long ???? / how intermittent the Snug meter control may or may not have been - is not clear.

My first gut reaction was as earlier post - would be if no afternoon no snug - that you were perhaps even consistently actually on E7 ALCS control - not Snug timings.

I have no idea if as another forumite has recently commented - whether they can genuinely be having a problem with overriding the day - for the boost - but yet somehow able to control the night.

But based on the vienna28 series of charts - the two seemed to by synchronised - and without checking for any detail from those other users referenced - again do worry - its based on the same - "well our HW is hot" etc observations.

PS  - Did I notice in another thread -  was it your post even - it's late even by my standards - that your meter has a sku2 comms hub - with an off hub antenna box bolted on it - but did it have the aerial link cable.

Are you in a poor signal area - so have say had a T1/T2 antenna to boost the signal fitted (there would be a cable from the box to something maybe looking like the picture 75% down this page here.

https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2

https://www.smartme.co.uk/images/SKU2_aerial_connection.png

PPS Out of interest has anyone - like the meter fitter - ever mentioned the word "mesh" to you.

Does the mesh led hub operate ?

If weak signal area - how reliably are Octopus able to read your half hourly data ?

I'll eat humble pie later - if vienna28 - or another user with actual tariff experience - has a better take on the operation / failure and Octopus response.

I wonder say if any others who may have been pushed off also had their bills redone ?