DWP forcing me to repay a debt caused by identity fraud

born_again

Robbie64 said: Though the interesting one would be where did DWP DM get your address? Possibly from HMRC records, though that is guesswork.

Nice to see the OP got the right result.

As to the details. Same as any other debt collector that gets details of a debtor when they move etc.
It's all out there on the various systems.

Although for DWP, with a NIN it should be a simple task to marry that to the persons who it is..

Which should make this kind of fraud very simple to stop. A simple address check on listed NIN & letter to ask for confirmation of claim if wrong address is entered. 🤷‍♀️

myDWPhell

Robbie64 said:

^

The reason why DWP Debt Management coul speak to you, but UC couldn't is down to different computer systems. It's impossible for the UC telephony agent to view a UC account unless the "correct" (or in your case, it would be incorrect) details are entered into the system. The agent won't already have access to your UC account, but rather a screen with a security question on it. If the answer input is incorrect then the agent can't proceed to the next screen and therefore won't be able to view the UC account (or at least, shouldn't be able to view the UC account).

Debt Management (DWP DM) have a different set up and can access your records (not UC records, simply records of any debt owing to the DWP) based on something like name and date of birth and NI number. Though the interesting one would be where did DWP DM get your address? Possibly from HMRC records, though that is guesswork.

Congratulations on getting the DWP to lapse the appeal though of course that is only half the work done. Will the newspaper be doing a follow up article? It would be good for the DWP to admit to making an error in some form of official statement, which could be published in the newspaper. Hopefully you won't ever need to claim UC, but if you do, you'll need to ensure that this UC account is not linked back to you. I don't know what the DWP do if an account if proven to be fraudulent but obviously you don't want it to still exist with your details. Maybe another SAR a few months down the road might be worth doing. You should get back "No trace of an account found" rather than getting back anything resembliong what has happened so far (i.e. an account is there but they can't provide the information you've asked for). I'd also be seeking compensation from the DWP. You won't get much - maybe £50 as a first offer and £200 as the ultimate recompense but at least it gets them to acknowledge that their systems have both allowed fraud to happen and have caused distress to the person affected by it. Any compensation award should be accomapnied by a letter of apology...

Yes it’s a bit of a mess! Sometimes when I called UC they’d ask their questions and just wouldn’t be able to find anything -  as in nothing at all. Agents have told me there’s “no claim”. Sometimes they’d apologise and literally say things like, “I’m really sorry, there’s nothing I can do”. One agent asked me to confirm my details again and stressed that it was the final attempt his system would allow. All I could do was repeat my details but of course it failed again. However, I’d always point out that it was regarding a fraudulent UC claim made in my name. Some agents would be able to find the claim but would inform me that they couldn’t discuss it with me because I couldn’t answer the questions but they would often confirm/reassure me that the claim was closed. 

I can appreciate that DWP DM and DWP UC have different IT systems and that would account for why DM would speak with me but UC wouldn’t. But obviously from my point of view it was infuriating (at best). It felt like they were both, holding me liable and forcing me to pay but wouldn’t discuss the case with me.

As for the address they were initially using for me. I was completely unaware of the issue until I noticed the DEA deduction on my payslip. I didn’t receive a copy of the LBA or DEA letters because they weren’t posted to my address. It gets a little messy here and for that reason I hadn’t bothered explaining it previously - too much typing!About 10 months prior to noticing the DEA deduction on my payslip I’d logged into my HMRC portal to confirm the (self assessment) tax I had to pay that January. I noticed that my address on the HMRC app was displaying as some weird address in Crewe! I’d never heard of it and don’t live in Crewe. I immediately emailed my accountant who couldn’t explain it, she said she’d never come across it before but reassured me that she’d changed it back to what it should be. As it turned out the Crewe address was the address associated with the fraudulent UC claim - although at that point I knew nothing about the claim so thought nothing of it. It got messy because my accountant when amending my address back to what it should be must have accidentally made a typo. The door number was inverted or back to front, for example 64 instead of 46. So the LBA and DEA letters went to the wrong door number. I discovered that DWP DM had the wrong door number during my first call with them. Initially, I was concerned that perhaps the people at “64” were involved but that turned out to be a red herring! At a later date I was able to confirm this as I submitted an HMRC SAR regarding my address history and changes made to it. The date it was changed back to my address but with the typo was the same date I’d emailed my accountant. It really has been like a second job - just to get to the bottom of the address/door number mystery took a huge amount of work and time. That said, even without my accountants typo, if I hadn’t noticed the weird Crewe address that is where both my LBA and DEA letters would have been sent. The point of that long explanation is, I assume when the fraudulent UC claim was submitted with the incorrect and fraudulent address that must have changed my address across all the government systems. I can’t think of any other explanation. 

As for it being over but only half the work done, you are entirely correct. I want a full retraction, a letter of apology and an explanation as to how this situation could ever have been allowed to happen, how it could have gone on for almost a year, why I was denied a copy of the written explanation… the list goes. The scale of negligence, incompetence, maladministration and potentially malpractice on the part of the DWP with my case was breathtaking. 

At least one of the newspapers is intending on doing a follow up and seeking an apology. However, the journalist in question is on holiday now for two weeks so that will be delayed. 

As for the “account”, that is something which concerns me and something I need to investigate. I need to somehow contact DWP UC and ensure that the account is completely removed from my records. I don’t want it to have any association with me whatsoever. 

When it comes to compensation. This wasn’t something I’d initially considered but my former MP and friend added it to a draft of something I’d submitted regarding my case. I’m not some sort of ambulance chasing, compo-seeker but that said, compensation is the only remedy available to me. Clearing my name - something I should NEVER have had to do has absolutely consumed my life - for a YEAR! I’ve now been on the phone alone for over 40 hours!!! That’s an entire working week. It sounds almost unbelievable but I must have spent at least six weeks working full time on this - AT LEAST! I’ve been to my GP multiple times with stress and anxiety. £200 really wouldn’t touch the sides - what the DWP needlessly did to me and put me through was absolutely inexcusable. When I received their Decision Review letter I was just out of hospital following surgery on my arm/hand. Instead of relaxing it was thrown into the full time and unwanted job of clearing my name. When I went to have the dressings changed on my wounds the nurse expressed her concerns that the areas where I’d had surgery still looked swollen and asked if I’d been following the advice to rest and keep my arm elevated. I had to reply that I had not! The reason I’m so furious about everything that has happened is because it just should never  have happened at all - it was a simple open and shut case. Someone put it very well in a post on Reddit. She said, “this isn't my **** up, it is theirs, and I shouldn't have to spend my limited time sorting out their mess.” She’s absolutely right and in my case it’s taken a year out of my life. I am of course aware that getting a proportionate compensation offer from the DWP will be like p****** against the wind! 

Sorry for my rant!

myDWPhell

born_again said:

Robbie64 said: Though the interesting one would be where did DWP DM get your address? Possibly from HMRC records, though that is guesswork.

Nice to see the OP got the right result.

As to the details. Same as any other debt collector that gets details of a debtor when they move etc.
It's all out there on the various systems.

Although for DWP, with a NIN it should be a simple task to marry that to the persons who it is..

Which should make this kind of fraud very simple to stop. A simple address check on listed NIN & letter to ask for confirmation of claim if wrong address is entered. 🤷‍♀️

Thanks. 

See my response to Robbie64 for some of the detail on the address situation. 

I’ve been at my actual address for just short of 20 years. I don’t understand how they can update an address on their systems on the say-so of just some random turning up to the Job Centre. One of the most infuriating aspects of this case is that for whatever reason, the fraudulent claimant started three claims in my name in the period of six weeks. Each claim with an entirely different address in entirely different cites - didn’t that seem a bit suspicious to the DWP! It was the third claim that progressed and the “advance” was paid out on. The first two claims automatically closed when the fraudulent claimant failed to attended the ID verification meetings. 

As for the NIN, this is another aspect which baffles me. Even a cursory glance at my NI and tax records would show that I would in no way whatsoever have any entitlement to UC - I just don’t understand it. 

Robbie64

There's nothing wrong with a good rant!

The compensation amounts that the DWP pay are pitiful. The staff guide for deciding compensation payments are laid out in the "Financial redress for maladministration: staff guide" at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/compensation-for-poor-service-a-guide-for-dwp-staff/financial-redress-for-maladministration-staff-guide

A PDF version can be downloaded from a link at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/compensation-for-poor-service-a-guide-for-dwp-staff

The guide suggests special compensation payments should be between £50 and £500 (it did used to be £200 hence why I mentioned this as an upper figure) although lower or higher payments can be made depending on the individual circumstances of a case (see 5.11 in the guide). Additional payments can be made for actual losses incurred (see 5.3 in the guide). In most cases, the compensation is due to an error or ommission made by the DWP in a benefit claim and where the person affected is the claimant. Your circumstances are slightly different (it was a fraudulent claim) but I'm assuming the same principles outlined in the guide apply.

Spoonie_Turtle

myDWPhell said:

born_again said:

Robbie64 said: Though the interesting one would be where did DWP DM get your address? Possibly from HMRC records, though that is guesswork.

Nice to see the OP got the right result.

As to the details. Same as any other debt collector that gets details of a debtor when they move etc.
It's all out there on the various systems.

Although for DWP, with a NIN it should be a simple task to marry that to the persons who it is..

Which should make this kind of fraud very simple to stop. A simple address check on listed NIN & letter to ask for confirmation of claim if wrong address is entered. 🤷‍♀️

Even a cursory glance at my NI and tax records would show that I would in no way whatsoever have any entitlement to UN - I just don’t understand it. 

That's not how UC works, though, the computer does a calculation at the end of the assessment period.  No human is involved in saying whether a claimant will have an entitlement or not, only if an MR is raised after an AP and its calculation.  And a record of past earnings means nothing, people can have their circumstances change and become entitled to financial support that they weren't before.  

Obviously the system is flawed when it comes to dealing with fraudulent claims, but that aspect of the system isn't really relevant here.  People with moderately high incomes can still be entitled to some UC if there are disabilities and disabled children and/or high rent in the mix.

born_again

Spoonie_Turtle said:

myDWPhell said:

born_again said:

Robbie64 said: Though the interesting one would be where did DWP DM get your address? Possibly from HMRC records, though that is guesswork.

Nice to see the OP got the right result.

As to the details. Same as any other debt collector that gets details of a debtor when they move etc.
It's all out there on the various systems.

Although for DWP, with a NIN it should be a simple task to marry that to the persons who it is..

Which should make this kind of fraud very simple to stop. A simple address check on listed NIN & letter to ask for confirmation of claim if wrong address is entered. 🤷‍♀️

Even a cursory glance at my NI and tax records would show that I would in no way whatsoever have any entitlement to UN - I just don’t understand it. 

That's not how UC works, though, the computer does a calculation at the end of the assessment period.  No human is involved in saying whether a claimant will have an entitlement or not, only if an MR is raised after an AP and its calculation.  And a record of past earnings means nothing, people can have their circumstances change and become entitled to financial support that they weren't before.  

Obviously the system is flawed when it comes to dealing with fraudulent claims, but that aspect of the system isn't really relevant here.  People with moderately high incomes can still be entitled to some UC if there are disabilities and disabled children and/or high rent in the mix.

I get what you are saying but there is no reason that a simple NIN check could be applied by computer & could flag up straight away on a application any discrepancy in user details (address etc) given that this is part of the application process.
Seems a simple thing to do.

I dread to think just how much money has been wasted in the OP's case by DWP staff & all other agencies involved.
Typical in many ways of certain departments.🤷‍♀️

myDWPhell

Robbie64 said:

There's nothing wrong with a good rant!

The compensation amounts that the DWP pay are pitiful. The staff guide for deciding compensation payments are laid out in the "Financial redress for maladministration: staff guide" at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/compensation-for-poor-service-a-guide-for-dwp-staff/financial-redress-for-maladministration-staff-guide

A PDF version can be downloaded from a link at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/compensation-for-poor-service-a-guide-for-dwp-staff

The guide suggests special compensation payments should be between £50 and £500 (it did used to be £200 hence why I mentioned this as an upper figure) although lower or higher payments can be made depending on the individual circumstances of a case (see 5.11 in the guide). Additional payments can be made for actual losses incurred (see 5.3 in the guide). In most cases, the compensation is due to an error or ommission made by the DWP in a benefit claim and where the person affected is the claimant. Your circumstances are slightly different (it was a fraudulent claim) but I'm assuming the same principles outlined in the guide apply.

Thanks very much for that. I’ll definitely have to look through that. I’m presuming it’s not light reading! 

As I said, I’m not an ambulance chaser but what I’ve been forced to endure is beyond comprehension. Additionally, instead of helping, the DWP acted as an obstacle to my case. No one should ever have to go through what I’ve been through in the past 12 months. As I also said, as far as I’m aware, compensation is the only remedy available. I do plan to speak with a solicitor and seek legal advice. Although I fully expect the DWP to be fully protected from any such action - zero accountability! 

For me, this genuinely isn’t just about me. Together with someone else who was forced to endure a similar experience, we intend to campaign on this. There really must be systems and procedures in place for people who through absolutely no fault of their own find themselves in the impossible predicament we endured. 

The other guy was featured in The Sun article I posted recently.

myDWPhell

Spoonie_Turtle said:

myDWPhell said:

born_again said:

Robbie64 said: Though the interesting one would be where did DWP DM get your address? Possibly from HMRC records, though that is guesswork.

Nice to see the OP got the right result.

As to the details. Same as any other debt collector that gets details of a debtor when they move etc.
It's all out there on the various systems.

Although for DWP, with a NIN it should be a simple task to marry that to the persons who it is..

Which should make this kind of fraud very simple to stop. A simple address check on listed NIN & letter to ask for confirmation of claim if wrong address is entered. 🤷‍♀️

Even a cursory glance at my NI and tax records would show that I would in no way whatsoever have any entitlement to UN - I just don’t understand it. 

That's not how UC works, though, the computer does a calculation at the end of the assessment period.  No human is involved in saying whether a claimant will have an entitlement or not, only if an MR is raised after an AP and its calculation.  And a record of past earnings means nothing, people can have their circumstances change and become entitled to financial support that they weren't before.  

Obviously the system is flawed when it comes to dealing with fraudulent claims, but that aspect of the system isn't really relevant here.  People with moderately high incomes can still be entitled to some UC if there are disabilities and disabled children and/or high rent in the mix.

Yea, I get what you’re saying. However, obviously for me, trapped in that, matrix like, twisted mind game that I found myself in it was difficult to have any sympathy or understanding for the DWP and their systems. It genuinely began to feel like a maze with no centre, exit or entrance. I’m no conspiracy theorist but I found myself wondering what was happening to me. I was blocked at every turn. 

I don’t have children - the fraudulent claimant also tried to claim for THREE children lol. This part of his claim failed because he only provided photocopies of the “birth certificates”. I’m a homeowner so I don’t pay any rent but he also submitted housing costs! Presumably it wouldn’t be financially viable but maybe there should be human involvement. 

However, there was some human involvement at the three face-to-face appointments. I’ve seen some of the notes on the JC system, there were clear red flags there especially regarding the bank account details. The fraudulent claimant consistently changed his bank account details over the days following the ID appointment - twice on the day of the ID appointment. 

Another thing I need to do is find out if there is some form of protection that can be applied to my identity with the DWP to ensure that this doesn’t happen again. I’ve read about some cases where some people have been victims of this type of fraud more than once. I couldn’t endure a repeat of this year! 

myDWPhell

born_again said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

myDWPhell said:

born_again said:

Robbie64 said: Though the interesting one would be where did DWP DM get your address? Possibly from HMRC records, though that is guesswork.

Nice to see the OP got the right result.

As to the details. Same as any other debt collector that gets details of a debtor when they move etc.
It's all out there on the various systems.

Although for DWP, with a NIN it should be a simple task to marry that to the persons who it is..

Which should make this kind of fraud very simple to stop. A simple address check on listed NIN & letter to ask for confirmation of claim if wrong address is entered. 🤷‍♀️

Even a cursory glance at my NI and tax records would show that I would in no way whatsoever have any entitlement to UN - I just don’t understand it. 

That's not how UC works, though, the computer does a calculation at the end of the assessment period.  No human is involved in saying whether a claimant will have an entitlement or not, only if an MR is raised after an AP and its calculation.  And a record of past earnings means nothing, people can have their circumstances change and become entitled to financial support that they weren't before.  

Obviously the system is flawed when it comes to dealing with fraudulent claims, but that aspect of the system isn't really relevant here.  People with moderately high incomes can still be entitled to some UC if there are disabilities and disabled children and/or high rent in the mix.

I get what you are saying but there is no reason that a simple NIN check could be applied by computer & could flag up straight away on a application any discrepancy in user details (address etc) given that this is part of the application process.
Seems a simple thing to do.

I dread to think just how much money has been wasted in the OP's case by DWP staff & all other agencies involved.
Typical in many ways of certain departments.🤷‍♀️

That would make sense! The tax, NI and other departments are all part of the government after all. Surely it must be possible to build in some form of cross referencing into their systems. My income alone that month (the month of the claim) would rule me out for UC! I guess the government is so sprawling and vast and the computer systems are so numerous and no doubt completely incompatible that such cross referencing just wouldn’t be possible. Added to that, the government never seems to have a good track record when it comes to their IT systems! 

You’re right, they must have spent a fortune on my case. I’ve submitted 15 DWP SAR’s alone, multiple complaints… I’d love to know how much it’s cost them - maybe I should submit an SAR!!! 😆 

myDWPhell

On a lighter note, I had to laugh when this appeared on my social media stream this morning!!! I genuinely laughed out loud. 

I wonder if I’m eligible?

Maybe I should apply!!!

DWP - Not fit for purpose!