The holy grail of university education.

Voyager2002

As a footnote to Cardelia's calculation in post #200 (!), the universities in the USA and elsewhere that do charge "realistic" tuition fees would laugh at any students or parents who tried to act as bossy consumers. Harvard knows full well that its ability to charge what it does rests on the value of the degrees that it awards, and if it were to compromise on academic standards and the demands that it makes on students (including expecting them to organise their time and study by themselves) then the value of its degrees would suffer. Not to mention the contribution that its research makes to its reputation, and so to the value of the education that it provides.

BTW more than 200 posts on a thread that StudentPhil started: is that a record? He certainly has talent in getting conversation going.

melancholly

i was surprised to see this thread up and going again!

i think one thing that parents don't see (but academic staff do!), are the large numbers of 'office hours' when staff are available for students to go to to talk about their lectures. this is a fantastic opportunity to get one-to-one advice, or feedback on essays or ask for more help on extra reading. however, only a tiny tiny proportion of students ever take up this option. the set hours of contact time are the minimum - and sadly most students can't be bothered to try and get more. it is there if you ask for it.

i think that most parents only hear one side of the story and that a pinch of salt is required in many of the stories of no contact time! i'm also pretty sure that the majority of lecturers would make time if a student contacted them - the idea of an interested, motivated student seems like a myth a lot of time!

ceewash

melancholly wrote: »

i was surprised to see this thread up and going again!

i think one thing that parents don't see (but academic staff do!), are the large numbers of 'office hours' when staff are available for students to go to to talk about their lectures. this is a fantastic opportunity to get one-to-one advice, or feedback on essays or ask for more help on extra reading. however, only a tiny tiny proportion of students ever take up this option. the set hours of contact time are the minimum - and sadly most students can't be bothered to try and get more. it is there if you ask for it.

i think that most parents only hear one side of the story and that a pinch of salt is required in many of the stories of no contact time! i'm also pretty sure that the majority of lecturers would make time if a student contacted them - the idea of an interested, motivated student seems like a myth a lot of time!

This is a very defensive argument. The skills I wish my son to learn are not necessarily study skills but the how to be a journalist skills, learning from the people who have the knowledge and experience. It seems that every time this subject is aired it seems that parents are told they don't understand the world of academia when in fact some of us also have degrees from the days when we were taught and mentored by very learned people who inspired us. What do we know? Should we just shut up and pay up and not believe what our children are telling us?

Voyager2002

ceewash wrote: »

This is a very defensive argument. The skills I wish my son to learn are not necessarily study skills but the how to be a journalist skills, learning from the people who have the knowledge and experience. It seems that every time this subject is aired it seems that parents are told they don't understand the world of academia when in fact some of us also have degrees from the days when we were taught and mentored by very learned people who inspired us. What do we know? Should we just shut up and pay up and not believe what our children are telling us?

Ceewash, you do know (I hope) that Melancholy is not a lecturer but an (advanced) student?

Anyway, to give my two cents:

University is not the place to learn the practical skills of journalism. No matter what course is being studied, the skills of independent learning are what a student needs to develop, and to a great extent these are learnt by doing rather than by being told about them.

Anyway, yes, there are very serious problems with the university education is now organised. One issue is that a realistic figure for the tuition fee would be closer to 50, 000 (yes fifty thousand pounds) per year rather than the present pathetic three thousand (although central government automatically tops it up so that the university receives quite a lot more than that for each of its students). Staff "office hours" tend to get eaten into by the pressure on staff that this shortage of funds imposes: perhaps not so much at Cambridge (where Melancholy is) but certainly at some other places.
Another issue is that few students put in enough time studying: doing an undergraduate degree properly requires about 45 -60 hours per week, but at most universities they put in more like 20 hours (apart from Oxford and Cambridge where the figure is more like 47, but the terms there are very short). Part of the reason is that they all think they need jobs now (back when I was a student working in term time was strictly forbidden: you just lived on your grant and nobody had any money, so we studied instead of drinking).

elisebutt65

poet123 wrote: »

As a parent I refer to the front line as the teaching of my kids,I am well aware this is not the order of priority,however in view of the new order of the funding, and the fact that students and parents buy a service,we have the right to expect equal consideration to be given to this area,to ensure we are getting what we pay for. If this is the new face of education then we are consumers ,and consumers have rights and expectations which need to be met and managed.

Yeah- but you have to consider that you're only buying a partial amount of service - as other posters have already pointed out £3000/year will pay for about 5% of a degree!! The rest is heavily subsidised. The research that is carried out helps to fund this subsidy and how else are lecturers supposed to keep current in their field of specialism?

The most boring lectures are those given by the lecturers who give the same old stuff year in, year out whereas those who keep current manage to make their subject vibrant and interesting.

The job I've just applied for actually on has 8 hours of teaching time - the rest is for my own study towards a(n) Ma and research for the university. This teaching time is mainly for 1-1's and tutorials with some seminars. HE is NOT FE! Students are not there to be spoonfed education. They are there to study independently with the lecturers giving them signposts - hence they have about 7-12 hours lecture time. If they need more help then most lecturers will see the student at tutorials if required. Most of my old tutors had an open door policy if they were not teaching and I saw mine at least once a week if I had problems or needed any further guidance.

There are also study support workshops held in most Unis that are subject specific - Usually the students who attend these are the ones who get 1sts and 2.1's - but if you can't be bothered to take time out of your social life to attend these, then on your own head be it really.

Oldernotwiser

ceewash wrote: »

This is a very defensive argument. The skills I wish my son to learn are not necessarily study skills but the how to be a journalist skills, learning from the people who have the knowledge and experience. It seems that every time this subject is aired it seems that parents are told they don't understand the world of academia when in fact some of us also have degrees from the days when we were taught and mentored by very learned people who inspired us. What do we know? Should we just shut up and pay up and not believe what our children are telling us?

I don't know when you were at university, but I did my first degree in the mid 70s and in the second and third years we had 3 -5 contact hours a week. I was certainly taught by people who knew their stuff and even inspired in some cases but I understood that I was at university to learn rather than to be taught. I think that someone who has personal experience of HE should understand the way things work, whereas someone without this experience might expect their offspring to be sitting in classrooms for 6 hours a day.

In your earlier post you said, "Plenty of time for self study but who teaches him the skills involved?" which I took to mean the skills of independent study. As it now appears that you mean the skills of journalism, then I'd have to say that the practical skills in this area are more likely to be learnt on the job rather than in the classroom. It always surprises me when I come across graduates from these type of courses who haven't done several work placements and been actively involved with the student press during their course. If your son's course is NCTJ accredited then I think you can reassure yourself that he is studying the areas required to enter this field.

melancholly

ceewash wrote: »

This is a very defensive argument. The skills I wish my son to learn are not necessarily study skills but the how to be a journalist skills, learning from the people who have the knowledge and experience. It seems that every time this subject is aired it seems that parents are told they don't understand the world of academia when in fact some of us also have degrees from the days when we were taught and mentored by very learned people who inspired us. What do we know? Should we just shut up and pay up and not believe what our children are telling us?

i'm not saying people don't understand academia (although the fact that so many people on this thread think it's all about teaching and not research suggests that that may be the case - or at least they only understand one side of it), just that in my experience of teaching at a couple of universities, very few students take up the opportunities to see staff. this clearly isn't what parents are hearing.... the contact hours are the minimum and it really doesn't take all that much effort to see staff. i am, as voyager pointed out, only a postgrad - but i do some teaching and have offered office hours in the past. a set two hours every week..... in an entire academic year, not one student turned up (and as my first year of teaching, i was a lot less cynical about student apathy then!). if an interested student had turned up and wanted help, i would have been so pleased to speak them about whatever they wanted to know.

if your son wants to learn then the opportunity is there, on a plate, but it won't be spoonfed to him. i always encourage all students on here to get the most that they can out of their time at university - doing that involves initiative. there will be more chances to see staff one-to-one than the set contact times. and if your son doesn't tell you that, then yes, take what he's saying with a pinch of salt.

if his department really doesn't offer office hours and chances for one-to-one feedback, then he should make a strong case for it at the undergraduate affairs committee, via his year representatives. these are adults though and the action needs to come from them, not from their parents. things can be changed but often the biggest barrier to that is apathy from the students themselves......

The_One_Who

melancholly wrote: »

i'm not saying people don't understand academia (although the fact that so many people on this thread think it's all about teaching and not research suggests that that may be the case - or at least they only understand one side of it), just that in my experience of teaching at a couple of universities, very few students take up the opportunities to see staff. this clearly isn't what parents are hearing.... the contact hours are the minimum and it really doesn't take all that much effort to see staff. i am, as voyager pointed out, only a postgrad - but i do some teaching and have offered office hours in the past. a set two hours every week..... in an entire academic year, not one student turned up (and as my first year of teaching, i was a lot less cynical about student apathy then!). if an interested student had turned up and wanted help, i would have been so pleased to speak them about whatever they wanted to know.

if your son wants to learn then the opportunity is there, on a plate, but it won't be spoonfed to him. i always encourage all students on here to get the most that they can out of their time at university - doing that involves initiative. there will be more chances to see staff one-to-one than the set contact times. and if your son doesn't tell you that, then yes, take what he's saying with a pinch of salt.

if his department really doesn't offer office hours and chances for one-to-one feedback, then he should make a strong case for it at the undergraduate affairs committee, via his year representatives. these are adults though and the action needs to come from them, not from their parents. things can be changed but often the biggest barrier to that is apathy from the students themselves......

I couldn't agree more! I was speaking to a lecturer of mine who said that office hours are hardly, if ever, used and the fact that they have to sit there doing nothing (I don't believe they are allowed to research in this time or do admin work) just frustrates them. There is also the option of e-mailing them to ask a specific question or to try to arrange a meeting. Unless they are incredibly mean they will try to see you.