The holy grail of university education.

poet123

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Poet, I'm normally in agreement with you but i think that your suggestions would be the final nail in the coffin of HE in the UK. If there's a recipe for turning a once highly valued university system into a series of degree factories then you've just described it.

Lets go all out for improvements and a return to higher standards, not this awful consumerism you seem to want.

I am not normally for consumerism either,but the Govt have sent HE down this path by making it a business,and charging for education. They cannot have it both ways,either it is a business, and as a parent of 2 kids at Uni and another coming up I have the same rights as I would if I paid for any other service, or we return to the old days of education for all,for educations sake.

It is simply not good enough to say," this is your bill",(over and above the copius amounts of personal taxation we pay)but sorry you have no actual rights or level of expectation because this is education,and it doesnt work that way.

Oldernotwiser

The_One_Who wrote: »

Sorry to be pedantic but Scottish courses are four years long. The first two years cover a broad curriculum with specialising in your chosen degree choice in third year. Degrees south of the border specialise sooner and so the time taken to complete the degree is shorter.

Sorry, you're right of course. I should have said English rather than British.:o

The_One_Who

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Sorry, you're right of course. I should have said English rather than British.:o

It's OK, just me being a pedant. I suppose Scottish students and their parents have no 'right' to moan about contact hours either since they are not paying for their university education.

Oldernotwiser

poet123 wrote: »

I am not normally for consumerism either,but the Govt have sent HE down this path by making it a business,and charging for education. They cannot have it both ways,either it is a business, and as a parent of 2 kids at Uni and another coming up I have the same rights as I would if I paid for any other service, or we return to the old days of education for all,for educations sake.

It is simply not good enough to say," this is your bill",(over and above the copius amounts of personal taxation we pay)but sorry you have no actual rights or level of expectation because this is education,and it doesnt work that way.

I don't think that we're going to agree on this, probably because of your current situation. I do have to say, though, that you're not the "consumer" in this situation and , as such, have no specific rights in it at all. The fact that you're able to pay for your children (which having seen other posts, I assume you're doing) doesn't really come into it. If anybody is the "consumer", then it's the student.

A return to education for it's own sake and for those who really want to do it and would benefit from it would be wonderful, wouldn't it? It would also solve all the funding problems and raise standards in a single step. Obviously too simple a solution for any government!:D

themanbearpig

University isn't just about learning stuff and jobs for the vast majority of students, and it never has been. There always has been a large element of nuturing and personal development during the time spent there. For me personally, this development is worth the debt itself.
Your friends from university are friends for life. You will never have such a close group of friends again, as you will never spend such carefree time with people again.
Im speaking as someone who has spent 2 amazing years at university, and I've changed massively as a person. Before university I lacked confidence, and couldn't speak to just anyone. But 2 years of constantly being surrounding by hundreds of like minded people, has hugely improved my ability to communicate to absolutely anyone, and has given me a lot more confidence. Even after two year, I think when I graduate I will have the skills to do something important in this world. Being successful isn't just about your ability to pass exams, you need to be highly confident, and a good all-rounder. Without my university experience, I would NEVER have devoloped so positively.

Obviously personal development is worthless if what you are learning isn't respected, which is a trap a lot of young people are falling in. Its not just about what you study, its where you have studied it. Your universities credibility is FAR more important than what you study.
ie, mickey mouse study at UCL - you've still got a shot at a good grad program if you get a 2.1
mickey mouse study at lincoln uni - you've just wasted £16k

Why any parent wouldn't encourage a child of resonable intellegence from having such an amazing experience, I can't understand.

The_One_Who

themanbearpig wrote: »

Obviously personal development is worthless if what you are learning isn't respected, which is a trap a lot of young people are falling in. Its not just about what you study, its where you have studied it. Your universities credibility is FAR more important than what you study.
ie, mickey mouse study at UCL - you've still got a shot at a good grad program if you get a 2.1
mickey mouse study at lincoln uni - you've just wasted £16k

Sorry, I don't want to derail this thread with an argument about this topic, but that is simply not true. If you get a 2.2 from anywhere then doors are shut for a lot of bit graduate employers, whereas a 2.1 from anywhere and a decent CV will get you an interview, from there it's down to competency and personality.

Voyager2002

The_One_Who wrote: »

Sorry, I don't want to derail this thread with an argument about this topic, but that is simply not true. If you get a 2.2 from anywhere then doors are shut for a lot of bit graduate employers, whereas a 2.1 from anywhere and a decent CV will get you an interview, from there it's down to competency and personality.

This topic was discussed fairly recently. Anyway, you are right of course, a good degree from a third-rate university can open a lot of doors. However, the quality and reputation of a the university that awards your degree makes a big difference to your career options, and there is evidence that a lot of school leavers do not realise this at the time when they are applying for university.

ceewash

poet123 wrote: »

I work in education and am very familiar with the demands made on academic staff outside contact time. However, I am also a realist and have worked in industry,and in many cases academics have it easy compared to those who work in industry where 12 weeks away from the front line(not necessarily holiday per se) is not the norm.

Therefore, throughout the year there is ample extra curriculur time, to catch up on in depth research.

Reading is an integral part of any course,but so is input and evaluation of that reading,and feedback from tutors,all contribute tot he whole academic experience. There is a lot of wasted time in a 3 year course which could be better utilised and in doing so allow the course to be reduced to 2 years. Of course the Unis have a vested financial interest to continue with the current arrangements,but imo it is the one area of university life which has not been changed or closely examined for decades. I believe it is an area which needs looking at for each indivdual course, and an assessment made on the optimum time for course delivery.

Totally agree with you. My son's journalism course is 10 hrs per week. Plenty of time for self study but who teaches him the skills involved. Does he learn it from a book? Some of his lecturers are not doing research but have other jobs for the rest of the week.

Cardelia

poet123 wrote: »

As a parent I refer to the front line as the teaching of my kids,I am well aware this is not the order of priority,however in view of the new order of the funding, and the fact that students and parents buy a service,we have the right to expect equal consideration to be given to this area,to ensure we are getting what we pay for. If this is the new face of education then we are consumers ,and consumers have rights and expectations which need to be met and managed.

Ok, if you want to go down the route of "I paid my money, where's my degree?" then lets take a look at exactly what you pay for.

Lets say the average lecturer earns £35,000 a year. You pay £3000 a year in tuition fees. So, if all your tuition fee was to go to one lecturer for the sole benefit of your child, you would be entitled to expect him or her to devote 8.5% of their university time to your child. 35 hours a week, 45 weeks a year means you have paid for 135 hours per year of this lecturer's time. Bear in mind this 135 hours has to include lectures, workshops, tutorials, labs and exams, as well as preparatory work and marking for all the above. Oh yes, and there are the innumerous and interminable meetings which go with teaching life, which I'm sure you're familiar with as a lecturer. So after all that, you're entitled to expect a lecturer to devote a whole 3 hours per week to your child, of which you'd expect about a third to be actual contact time. 1 hour a week. Your fees don't get much, do they?

Obviously this is an unrealistic breakdown and the actual figure won't be anywhere near as much as 3 hours per week. Some university courses can have as many as 25 lecturers involved, not to mention the technical staff and postgraduate demonstrators who all need paying from the tuition fees. Then there's the upkeep of the university - building maintenance, administration/support staff wages, raw materials. That all has to come from your tuition fee as well. Then there's things like student hardship funds and bursaries - they come from tuition fees too. The costs involved with running a university are absolutely huge; £3000 per year per student is a drop in the ocean.

The bottom line is this: when undergraduates pay a realistic level of fees towards their education, a level which more accurately reflects the cost of running a higher education establishment, then you can expect undergraduate teaching to be given equal consideration to research. But the current situation is that there is a huge imbalance between research and teaching, and the priorities of lecturers reflects this. If you want equal treatment for undergraduate teaching then you can pay for it. So, that'll be an extra £20,000 a year please.

Oldernotwiser

ceewash wrote: »

Totally agree with you. My son's journalism course is 10 hrs per week. Plenty of time for self study but who teaches him the skills involved. Does he learn it from a book? Some of his lecturers are not doing research but have other jobs for the rest of the week.

A student who has successfully studied at A level should have mastered the skills of independent study but unfortunately the dumbing down of education at this level and the spoon feeding that passes for teaching have meant that this isn't necessarily the case. Education at university level should be about the student learning rather than being taught and most universities include study skills in year 1 personal tutorials. That's if the student
bothers to go to these, of course!