The holy grail of university education.

Ted_Bloke

Came acrross this http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/freethinking/2007/festival-events/event01/ thought phil did surely start some thread on subject, didn't remember, thought must have done, looked up 'Find all threads started by student phil', thought :eek: , then the first relevant not-locked one was on p4., well here are some points of view for anyone with time or inclination.

Rosemary7391

I think its a good thing that lecturers are involved in research - at University level, especially the further on you get, you need to be taught by people who are true experts in the field, ie the people who are pushing it forwards.

About funding, I'm just putting in my application for uni. I'll get the smallest grant available because of my parents income, and I don't expect or want them to pay anything towards my education. I've always wanted to go to Uni - so I've a savings account, into which a substantial proportion of my birthday money goes, and I've had a part time job since I was 15. With a budget, its possible to survive on the loan and temp work.

The best thing my parents ever taught me was that if you wanted something, you have to go and get it for yourself. No one is going to give it to you. Hence why I don't even want them to consider paying for my fees/living costs. They've done that for quite long enough.

Voyager2002

Cardelia has given an accurate description of what the system is, and how it works.

Some additional facts: the cost to the university of educating an undergraduate is actually a good deal more than tuition fee that a home student pays. That is why universities are so keen to recruit international students, whose tuition fees are the amount calculated to be the full cost of providing their education, and something like six thousand a year. So UK students (and their parents) are actually getting a bargain, subsidised by the tax-payer.

While the idea of separating teaching and research universities might sound attractive, it would raise some serious problems. Firstly, the reputation of a university is built on its research, and this feeds through to the value of the degrees it awards and so to the job opportunities available to its graduates. Secondly, in order to be a good teacher at university level, you need to be in contact with the way your subject is developing and to have recent experience of solving problems: and usually that comes with being an active researcher. Personally, the lectures I received from research-active academics were both more interesting and more useful than those from lecturers who had given up on research.

Finally, many of the skills and intellectual habits that university is supposed to provide can only be developed through independent study. Yes, there is a need for some lectures to give students an overview of a new topic and outline what they will get from the different items on the reading list, but the hard work of learning takes place between a student and a text. Spending more time in the lecture theatre would cut into independent study time and devalue a degree.

poet123

You miss the point that many, if not most, parents want to contribute to their childrens further education. However we do expect,as should students themselves expect, a certain standard of teaching and committment. Whilst research is desirable,it should not be done at the expense of the undergrads whom they are contracted to teach.

CLAPTON

poet123 wrote: »

You miss the point that many, if not most, parents want to contribute to their childrens further education. However we do expect,as should students themselves expect, a certain standard of teaching and committment. Whilst research is desirable,it should not be done at the expense of the undergrads whom they are contracted to teach.

so... would you rather your children are taught by career lecturers who are 50-60 years out of date or profs who are at the leading edge of developments / research in their subject.

it's a difficult choice.. it the 'old day' we had polys to merely teach and unis for those that wanted more.

poet123

In the old days students and parents were not actually paying upfront for academia. So given the fact that today we are in a consumer driven society,with its attendant responsibility, surely there should be a happy medium,with lecturers being allowed to engage in research whilst still recognising their committment and duty of care to the students they are paid to teach. I speak as a Lecturer at a 6th form College.

The_One_Who

College lecturers are completely different to university lecturers though. College ones are not being paid to do any research whereas university ones are, that is their primary job. I don't think there are many universities which employ lecturers with research being secondary. Teaching of course does come into it, but research is their main purpose. And there are many professors who don't have any contact with students and focus all their time on research.

Are you complaining at the amount of contact hours given? Or is it something else?

poet123

Many parents,myself included, believe that a degree course could be condensed into 2 years or 18 months if the amount of contact time was increased. Thus reducing the cost, and debt burden to the student and the parents who contribute.

Rosemary7391

Where do you put all the self study?? University shouldn't be about being spoon fed, it should be the time to find things out for yourself, with the guidance of your lecturers.

poet123

I think I know slightly more about University and its requirements than you may know at this stage of your life.

The average course has roughly 12 hours contact time in the first year,with less in subsequent years. I am not suggesting contact time be tripled or even necessarily doubled,merely increased to bring the overall time spent at university down to perhaps 2 instead of 3 years. This timescale would be easily achievable without compromising either the self study time, which is of course a vital component of any degree course,or the degree classification. It would be beneficial to all concerned,as currently the first year of any degree course is not counted toward the actual qualification.