potential scam on rent charges

MyRealNameToo

theycallmetrinity said:

user1977 said:

theycallmetrinity said:

How could JoyceXXX in their letter claim awareness of a call from NatWest, given the bank’s denial of involvement?

Because the bank were wrong and the call was actually from NatWest? That seems the most likely explanation of the story. Otherwise it's a strangely convoluted scam.

well, the fraud team at natwest said to treat it as a scam as the bank would never call a customer to pass a third party message regardless of the importance. and i was told to open a case with action fraud. but everybody so far said the action fraud would not do anything. so what to do instead? I could potentially confront them.... but as the action fraud team meber said, they could destroy evidence, dissolve the company etc etc... so ? what would you do?  

They shouldn't but people go off script, sometimes with well meaning. 

When I worked in motor insurance claims we could, with a team leaders approval, send small gifts to customers. It wasnt often done because obviously we are a money hungry heartless insurance company but occasionally there'd be a customer in tears saying this has just happened to them and their pregnant and they ve just started a new job and the car won't start and what they going to do. Some kind hearted operator, obviously not me, would get permission from the team leader and organise a bunch of flowers to be sent or such. 

On one occasion I got a call from a policyholder saying he thinks his wife's been messing around and he's come home to her having crashed his car and a bunch of flowers which he thinks are from her bit on the side but she's told him they were from us. I was able to confirm it was though he still didnt seem convinced. 

I went to another of our claims sites and was listening in to some calls and after the call ended asked if they were considering sending a small gift given it was another messy one. The agent looked at me as if I had just told her to sacrifice her first born... seemingly it was just out office that did it. So had the bloke called and been incorrectly routed to a different office they may have told him that they definitely weren't from us without even bothering to look in the file notes which would have said we had. 

Now I suspect it wasn't NW calling but I also suspect that the fraud team have said it wasnt because it shouldn't have been rather than because they've actually checked and verified no call was made. 

MeteredOut

theycallmetrinity said:

user1977 said:

But you know which company is the rent charge holder, and presumably know whether or not you owe them anything? As long as you know you are contacting them and not a third party, I'm not sure what the fraud would be. The fact they have a history of being associated with dissolved companies is irrelevant.

Look there are 3 important facts here 
1. the way i was approached. 
2. the latter is hand-delivered by one of them not a postman
3. the letter state exactly that natwest called me to pass the message.

would you not treat it as suspicious??

My first reaction would have been to call the mobile number they passed or to email them after the letter but since i was told by the action fraud team not to contact them i decided to follow their advice. 

my question here also is, if the action fraud in 6 months or a year does not contact me? 

Action Fraud will not contact you in 6 months, 1 year or ever. They don't deal with individual cases, but amalgamate reports to identify trends and will use that to pass onto those that investigate large scale fraud.

Have you contacted the rent charge holder using contact details you know are correct?

theycallmetrinity

MyRealNameToo said:

theycallmetrinity said:

user1977 said:

theycallmetrinity said:

How could JoyceXXX in their letter claim awareness of a call from NatWest, given the bank’s denial of involvement?

Because the bank were wrong and the call was actually from NatWest? That seems the most likely explanation of the story. Otherwise it's a strangely convoluted scam.

well, the fraud team at natwest said to treat it as a scam as the bank would never call a customer to pass a third party message regardless of the importance. and i was told to open a case with action fraud. but everybody so far said the action fraud would not do anything. so what to do instead? I could potentially confront them.... but as the action fraud team meber said, they could destroy evidence, dissolve the company etc etc... so ? what would you do?  

They shouldn't but people go off script, sometimes with well meaning. 

When I worked in motor insurance claims we could, with a team leaders approval, send small gifts to customers. It wasnt often done because obviously we are a money hungry heartless insurance company but occasionally there'd be a customer in tears saying this has just happened to them and their pregnant and they ve just started a new job and the car won't start and what they going to do. Some kind hearted operator, obviously not me, would get permission from the team leader and organise a bunch of flowers to be sent or such. 

On one occasion I got a call from a policyholder saying he thinks his wife's been messing around and he's come home to her having crashed his car and a bunch of flowers which he thinks are from her bit on the side but she's told him they were from us. I was able to confirm it was though he still didnt seem convinced. 

I went to another of our claims sites and was listening in to some calls and after the call ended asked if they were considering sending a small gift given it was another messy one. The agent looked at me as if I had just told her to sacrifice her first born... seemingly it was just out office that did it. So had the bloke called and been incorrectly routed to a different office they may have told him that they definitely weren't from us without even bothering to look in the file notes which would have said we had. 

Now I suspect it wasn't NW calling but I also suspect that the fraud team have said it wasnt because it shouldn't have been rather than because they've actually checked and verified no call was made. 

yes they said no call was made and also they stressed the fact the the bank would never call to pass me third party messages.

MeteredOut

theycallmetrinity said:

MyRealNameToo said:

theycallmetrinity said:

user1977 said:

theycallmetrinity said:

How could JoyceXXX in their letter claim awareness of a call from NatWest, given the bank’s denial of involvement?

Because the bank were wrong and the call was actually from NatWest? That seems the most likely explanation of the story. Otherwise it's a strangely convoluted scam.

well, the fraud team at natwest said to treat it as a scam as the bank would never call a customer to pass a third party message regardless of the importance. and i was told to open a case with action fraud. but everybody so far said the action fraud would not do anything. so what to do instead? I could potentially confront them.... but as the action fraud team meber said, they could destroy evidence, dissolve the company etc etc... so ? what would you do?  

They shouldn't but people go off script, sometimes with well meaning. 

When I worked in motor insurance claims we could, with a team leaders approval, send small gifts to customers. It wasnt often done because obviously we are a money hungry heartless insurance company but occasionally there'd be a customer in tears saying this has just happened to them and their pregnant and they ve just started a new job and the car won't start and what they going to do. Some kind hearted operator, obviously not me, would get permission from the team leader and organise a bunch of flowers to be sent or such. 

On one occasion I got a call from a policyholder saying he thinks his wife's been messing around and he's come home to her having crashed his car and a bunch of flowers which he thinks are from her bit on the side but she's told him they were from us. I was able to confirm it was though he still didnt seem convinced. 

I went to another of our claims sites and was listening in to some calls and after the call ended asked if they were considering sending a small gift given it was another messy one. The agent looked at me as if I had just told her to sacrifice her first born... seemingly it was just out office that did it. So had the bloke called and been incorrectly routed to a different office they may have told him that they definitely weren't from us without even bothering to look in the file notes which would have said we had. 

Now I suspect it wasn't NW calling but I also suspect that the fraud team have said it wasnt because it shouldn't have been rather than because they've actually checked and verified no call was made. 

yes they said no call was made and also they stressed the fact the the bank would never call to pass me third party messages.

A little secret. People in one part of a bank do not know what other people in other parts of the bank do. They will say things that are safe and believable, that won't get them into trouble, and that hopefully gets you off the phone so they can get onto the next customer and keep their average handling time below their targets.

I'm not saying someone did not impersonate NatWest, but a first line fraud agent telling you it was not them does not mean it was not them. They work off scripts.

mta999

You need to contact the rent charge company and you need to pay the amount outstanding

MyRealNameToo

theycallmetrinity said:

MyRealNameToo said:

theycallmetrinity said:

user1977 said:

theycallmetrinity said:

How could JoyceXXX in their letter claim awareness of a call from NatWest, given the bank’s denial of involvement?

Because the bank were wrong and the call was actually from NatWest? That seems the most likely explanation of the story. Otherwise it's a strangely convoluted scam.

well, the fraud team at natwest said to treat it as a scam as the bank would never call a customer to pass a third party message regardless of the importance. and i was told to open a case with action fraud. but everybody so far said the action fraud would not do anything. so what to do instead? I could potentially confront them.... but as the action fraud team meber said, they could destroy evidence, dissolve the company etc etc... so ? what would you do?  

They shouldn't but people go off script, sometimes with well meaning. 

When I worked in motor insurance claims we could, with a team leaders approval, send small gifts to customers. It wasnt often done because obviously we are a money hungry heartless insurance company but occasionally there'd be a customer in tears saying this has just happened to them and their pregnant and they ve just started a new job and the car won't start and what they going to do. Some kind hearted operator, obviously not me, would get permission from the team leader and organise a bunch of flowers to be sent or such. 

On one occasion I got a call from a policyholder saying he thinks his wife's been messing around and he's come home to her having crashed his car and a bunch of flowers which he thinks are from her bit on the side but she's told him they were from us. I was able to confirm it was though he still didnt seem convinced. 

I went to another of our claims sites and was listening in to some calls and after the call ended asked if they were considering sending a small gift given it was another messy one. The agent looked at me as if I had just told her to sacrifice her first born... seemingly it was just out office that did it. So had the bloke called and been incorrectly routed to a different office they may have told him that they definitely weren't from us without even bothering to look in the file notes which would have said we had. 

Now I suspect it wasn't NW calling but I also suspect that the fraud team have said it wasnt because it shouldn't have been rather than because they've actually checked and verified no call was made. 

yes they said no call was made and also they stressed the fact the the bank would never call to pass me third party messages.

I fully agree it's not bank policy to do so and would imagine they would crack down on an agent if they had found they had. I also suspect an agent is much more likely to decide to go off protocol for a sob story rather than a director of a business calling but personally would question how they ascertained no call was made. 

My bet would be they've just assumed protocols were followed rather than checking or simply looked to see if the account had been accessed. Have seen cases where staff, manager, counter fraud have said something can't have happened and in the end it was found it did... most of those involved internal fraud but in one occasion it was an IT upgrade gone really bad. Just look at the Post Office Scandal, they even got criminal convictions because people were so convinced what they were saying couldnt be true but in the end it came to light the software was doing what they post masters were alleging. 

This is a bit of a rabbit hole however as I suspect it wasnt NW calling even thought I doubt their counter fraud team made an material investigations to check

theycallmetrinity

MeteredOut said:

theycallmetrinity said:

user1977 said:

But you know which company is the rent charge holder, and presumably know whether or not you owe them anything? As long as you know you are contacting them and not a third party, I'm not sure what the fraud would be. The fact they have a history of being associated with dissolved companies is irrelevant.

Look there are 3 important facts here 
1. the way i was approached. 
2. the latter is hand-delivered by one of them not a postman
3. the letter state exactly that natwest called me to pass the message.

would you not treat it as suspicious??

My first reaction would have been to call the mobile number they passed or to email them after the letter but since i was told by the action fraud team not to contact them i decided to follow their advice. 

my question here also is, if the action fraud in 6 months or a year does not contact me? 

Action Fraud will not contact you in 6 months, 1 year or ever. They don't deal with individual cases, but amalgamate reports to identify trends and will use that to pass onto those that investigate large scale fraud.

Have you contacted the rent charge holder using contact details you know are correct?

the rent charge older when i bought the house never ever gave me contact details.

then few years later when i needed to remortgage the bank wanted their response and my solicitor tried to get in touche with them for months at the address their company was registered and never received a reply.

so eventually the bank approved the remortgage. in all these years, about 10, these rent charges holders have opened and dissolved. same people as directors.

and now they even come to me with the bank calling me story.

also during the famous natwest call they induced me to disclose the date of birth and residential address.

that is why they hand delivered me the letter shortly after. 

even the ICO ( information commissioner office) which i contacted regarding a potential GDPR issue advised that this is potential scam and told me to report it

theycallmetrinity

MyRealNameToo said:

theycallmetrinity said:

MyRealNameToo said:

theycallmetrinity said:

user1977 said:

theycallmetrinity said:

How could JoyceXXX in their letter claim awareness of a call from NatWest, given the bank’s denial of involvement?

Because the bank were wrong and the call was actually from NatWest? That seems the most likely explanation of the story. Otherwise it's a strangely convoluted scam.

well, the fraud team at natwest said to treat it as a scam as the bank would never call a customer to pass a third party message regardless of the importance. and i was told to open a case with action fraud. but everybody so far said the action fraud would not do anything. so what to do instead? I could potentially confront them.... but as the action fraud team meber said, they could destroy evidence, dissolve the company etc etc... so ? what would you do?  

They shouldn't but people go off script, sometimes with well meaning. 

When I worked in motor insurance claims we could, with a team leaders approval, send small gifts to customers. It wasnt often done because obviously we are a money hungry heartless insurance company but occasionally there'd be a customer in tears saying this has just happened to them and their pregnant and they ve just started a new job and the car won't start and what they going to do. Some kind hearted operator, obviously not me, would get permission from the team leader and organise a bunch of flowers to be sent or such. 

On one occasion I got a call from a policyholder saying he thinks his wife's been messing around and he's come home to her having crashed his car and a bunch of flowers which he thinks are from her bit on the side but she's told him they were from us. I was able to confirm it was though he still didnt seem convinced. 

I went to another of our claims sites and was listening in to some calls and after the call ended asked if they were considering sending a small gift given it was another messy one. The agent looked at me as if I had just told her to sacrifice her first born... seemingly it was just out office that did it. So had the bloke called and been incorrectly routed to a different office they may have told him that they definitely weren't from us without even bothering to look in the file notes which would have said we had. 

Now I suspect it wasn't NW calling but I also suspect that the fraud team have said it wasnt because it shouldn't have been rather than because they've actually checked and verified no call was made. 

yes they said no call was made and also they stressed the fact the the bank would never call to pass me third party messages.

I fully agree it's not bank policy to do so and would imagine they would crack down on an agent if they had found they had. I also suspect an agent is much more likely to decide to go off protocol for a sob story rather than a director of a business calling but personally would question how they ascertained no call was made. 

My bet would be they've just assumed protocols were followed rather than checking or simply looked to see if the account had been accessed. Have seen cases where staff, manager, counter fraud have said something can't have happened and in the end it was found it did... most of those involved internal fraud but in one occasion it was an IT upgrade gone really bad. Just look at the Post Office Scandal, they even got criminal convictions because people were so convinced what they were saying couldnt be true but in the end it came to light the software was doing what they post masters were alleging. 

This is a bit of a rabbit hole however as I suspect it wasnt NW calling even thought I doubt their counter fraud team made an material investigations to check

I requested an Access Subject Request and i go the record of the call where the fraud team says they never calle, and also in the given time and dates , natwest says there is no call they have done to me.

MeteredOut

Ok, so if you can't contact them, why not just leave it there? You've reported it to Action Fraud, you're not out of pocket. Sit back and wait to see if they contact you?

If they phone again, ask them to prove they are the charge holders before entering into any discussion with them. 

The SAR to NatWest is your right, but what will you do when it comes back and confirms what you've said here?

What outcome do you want? 

theycallmetrinity

MeteredOut said:

Ok, so if you can't contact them, why not just leave it there? You've reported it to Action Fraud, you're not out of pocket. Sit back and wait to see if they contact you?

If they phone again, ask them to prove they are the charge holders before entering into any discussion with them. 

mta999 says.... 
I would like to point out that if they knew my number ( and they defo do ) and they would have contacted me directly i would have probably fell for it.