Are EV and ToU tariffs unfair to other electricity customers?

MattMattMattUK

Ildhund said:

MattMattMattUK said:
That is the way the regulator wants it, any new E7 installations will also now use the half hourly readings rather than separate registers.

This is news to me (not an unusual experience, to be sure). Where should I have read about it?

I am fairly certain it was in the Ofgem evidence to the HoC Select Committee, one of the Ofgem people explaining about grid modernisation to the MPs. Yes I know I am boring listening to them, 

I am also fairly sure it came up in some of the paperwork when I was looking through regs so I could reply to the consultation, but you have me doubting now if it is currently implemented, or something that is to be implemented at a future date. If I find it again when I am finalising my submission this weekend I will post the link. 
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/consultation/requirement-offer-lower-standing-charge-tariffs

Ildhund said:

Can you say how this is supposed to work when meters currently being installed have an in-built delay of up to half-an-hour between the start of an offpeak bucket and the circuit powering 'offpeak' equipment being energized, and the same at the end of the offpeak period? 

I do not know. My guess would be that any slot open whilst the circuit is energised would be designated off peak and any slot used when the circuit was not energised would use the peak rate. That is how the Snug tariff works, which allows Octopus to switch on the circuit at any time of day and that designates it off peak. So long as the circuit is energised for seven hours in the window, even if that window actually ends up up to 30 minutes longer due to it including an extra slot the consumer will not lose out (and would actually gain).
https://octopus.energy/smart/snug-octopus/

born_again

Wonder what OP would make of Zonal pricing as suggested by Octopus boss.

JKenH

born_again said:

Wonder what OP would make of Zonal pricing as suggested by Octopus boss.

Quite happy to consider that but the devil is in the detail. 

Ildhund

MattMattMattUK said:

Ildhund said:

Can you say how this is supposed to work ...?

I do not know. My guess would be that any slot open whilst the circuit is energised would be designated off peak ...

OK. That would of course increase the number of offpeak buckets by one for each slot, so there would have to be some adjustment, perhaps to the tariff. I don't know if this graphic helps to illustrate the dilemma - it certainly confuses me!

  


Your guess would have buckets 1/48 - 15/48 - 7½ hours - billed at the offpeak rate, instead of the 7 expected. Is this how Snug works?   

MattMattMattUK

Ildhund said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Ildhund said:

Can you say how this is supposed to work ...?

I do not know. My guess would be that any slot open whilst the circuit is energised would be designated off peak ...

OK. That would of course increase the number of offpeak buckets by one for each slot, so there would have to be some adjustment, perhaps to the tariff. I don't know if this graphic helps to illustrate the dilemma - it certainly confuses me!
  
[Sorry, I can't get the image to upload ☹️. I'll try again in the morning...]

Your guess would have buckets 1/48 - 15/48 - 7½ hours - billed at the offpeak rate, instead of the 7 expected. Is this how Snug works?   

Snug is only six hours overnight, but a minimum of a one hour boost at the off-peak rate and usually around eight hours of off peak electricity per day, based on when they turn on the circuit. Some snug users have had up to twelve hours of off peak usage in a day.

It is quite an interesting system, easier to use as an energy sink when there is excessive daytime generation and a lot of EVs are not plugged in because people are not at home. 

Ildhund

MattMattMattUK said:
That is how the Snug tariff works, which allows Octopus to switch on the circuit at any time of day and that designates it off peak. 

Thanks. As I understand it, there are two ways of controlling the switching of an auxiliary circuit - the ALCS Calendar, or the Boost function. The former can be changed at any time, but its timings will be modified by the randomized offset, which won't be known to the changing entity. Boost is an instantaneous change, but its effect can't - I think - be extended beyond one hour, so no good for altering the overnight offpeak slot. If the tariff is to be synchronized with the ALCS timings, that's a separate service request, also subject to the randomized offset. Boost won't involve a change of tariff.  

Since Snug seems to be working for many customers, it should be possible to find out just how the meter is manipulated to do the necessary. I'm not an Octopus customer, so I can't really ask ...

Scot_39

Ildhund said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Ildhund said:

Can you say how this is supposed to work ...?

I do not know. My guess would be that any slot open whilst the circuit is energised would be designated off peak ...

OK. That would of course increase the number of offpeak buckets by one for each slot, so there would have to be some adjustment, perhaps to the tariff. I don't know if this graphic helps to illustrate the dilemma - it certainly confuses me!

  


Your guess would have buckets 1/48 - 15/48 - 7½ hours - billed at the offpeak rate, instead of the 7 expected. Is this how Snug works?   

Sadly no - in that scenario - if operated like Snug does for what it terms meter "to react" / "respond" - you would have 14 buckets - and bill ALCS load period B at day rate - not 9p rate - along with the rest of 15 of 48 bucket.

From their FAQs on launch page

https://octopus.energy/smart/snug-octopus/

"It sometimes takes a bit of time for meters to react to smart charging, but most respond within 15 minutes. Any delay that does happen could cause some charging to happen at peak times, which means you’ll be charged the day rate."

Its a perfect example of the problem with smart tariffs and rigid half hourly billing - ignoring the reality of how many multirate ALCS meters operate.

Ildhund

Scot_39 said:
https://octopus.energy/smart/snug-octopus/

"It sometimes takes a bit of time for meters to react to smart charging, but most respond within 15 minutes. Any delay that does happen ... "

Right, so you're assuming that this ~15 minute delay is in fact the meter's randomized offset? I took the statement at face value, that the meter's reaction might be delayed for all sorts of reasons, like congestion or other priorities at DCC. If it was supposed to explain the randomized offset, then that 'sometimes' is misleading. The offset will always be there, for both the ALCS and the tariff switching table.

If the afternoon boost is also controlled by the ALCS calendar, then the peak-rate overshoot will occur every day. If it's controlled by a Boost function in the meter, there won't be any overshoot and no unexpected peak-rate usage. That's a difference of the order of £50 over a heating season.

Swipe

I still don't understand why Snug bills in 30min buckets over the registers when it uses ALCS to control the switching. They are just introducing a problem that doesn't need to exist.

Qyburn

Regarding fairness, what do you think about people excluded from these tariffs because they don't have WAN coverage for their smart meter?